Mothering Magazine Sponsored Chat with Cynthia Good Mojab,
MS, IBCLC, RLC, CATSM is a clinical counselor, international board
certified lactation consultant, author, researcher, and speaker.
Through her private practice,
LifeCircle Counseling and Consulting (LLC) she offers a blend of
psychological and lactation services to women and health care
providers, in person and by phone. In this chat, Cynthia will talk
about grieving perinatal losses, including miscarriage, ectopic
pregnancy, stillbirth, and newborn death.
www.mothering.com
6/29/06
18 mamas in attendance
All Mothering Sponsored chats
with Cynthia:
4/27/06
5/25/06
6/29/06
8/23/06
9/28/06
10/26/06
Webmama_Tina:
today we are happy to have cynthia good
mojab with us again!
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: I'm glad to be here, Tina.
Webmama_Tina: Cynthia Good Mojab, MS, IBCLC, RLC,
CATSM is a clinical counselor,
international board certified lactation
consultant, author, researcher, and
speaker. Through her private practice,
LifeCircle Counseling and Consulting
(LLC) she offers a blend of
psychological and lactation services to
women and health care providers, in
person and by phone. In this chat,
Cynthia will talk about grieving
perinatal losses, including miscarriage,
ectopic pregnancy, stillbirth, and
newborn death.
Webmama_Tina: anything you want to add, cynthia?
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Yes, Tina. I've known many women who
have experienced a pregnancy loss or
infant death and have not found enough
information and support--even basic
recognition of their loss. Because of
this, grieving such a loss is made that
much harder.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: That's one reason the opportunity to
have a Chat like this is so important.
I'm very glad that we are able to talk
today.
Webmama_Tina: out of curiosity, how many of us here
have suffered the loss of a child?
Webmama_Tina: *raises hand*
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: I'm ready for questions any time, Tina.
Stayseeliz: I've had an early miscarriage. It was a
lot harder than I thought it would be.
DuckyTate: I have 4 children and I had 4
miscarriages I did everything I could to
recover and grive on my own including
memorials to our lost children, every
year the anniversaries of my losses get
harder not easier. Is it true that some
Mothers never truy recover?
Webmama_Tina: please post a single question mark at
any time, mamas, and i will add you to
the queu...i believe ducky was first
ilovezoeystar: ?
DuckyTate: I thought I was first also sorry to
cause a bother
Webmama_Tina: upcoming chatters (after ducky):
ilovezoeystar
Webmama_Tina: ducky, you were first, you're fine :)
DuckyTate: ok
DuckyTate: Well apart from my spelling typos!
Webmama_Tina: :) no worries
DuckyTate: lol
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Grief is the natural, healthy, human
process that we experience after a loss.
Grief can be stopped, however, when
something about our circumstances
doesn't give us permission" to grieve."
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: For example, when most of a woman's time
and energy is being spent caring for
young children, it can be hard to find
time and energy to grieve well.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Also, sometimes grief becomes more
complicated because too many losses
happened in too short a time. Grieving
one loss can feel overwhelming. Grieving
several losses even more so.
Webmama_Tina: for those joining us late.... Welcome to
this week's Mothering Sponsored chat!
This is a moderated chat. Please make
sure you read and fully understand the
Moderated Chat Instructions before
participating in this chat. Instructions
can be found here:
http://www.mommychats.com/modrules.htm
...A Friendly Reminder: Please do not
post unless it is your turn to ask a
question. If you have a question, please
post a single ?" and you'll be added to
the queue. Have your question ready when
your name is called."
DuckyTate: In my recent reading I found a claim
that the DNA of every child carried is
imprinted on the Mothers brain and that
they are always a part of you even if
they are gone from you. Could this be
why after all these years it still feel
like raw pain?
Stayseeliz: ?
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: I am not familiar with that claim,
however, I know that women do not forget
the children they have lost. When grief
is well supported, the intensity of the
pain gradually, but in a very irregular
sort of way, decreases. But this does
not mean that we never miss our
children, wish we could have shared more
of life with them, etc. Anniversary
grief is common and normal. Bereaved
mothers often feel an upsurge of pain,
longing, and sorrow on the anniversary
of an expected due date, birth, death,
... and on special family days that
mothers wish they could share with their
missing children.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Grief counseling and grief therapy can
be invaluable sources of support and
healing--especially when bereaved
mothers are not finding enough support
in their own network of friends and
family....
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Is the raw pain that you feel constant,
DuckyTate? Or is it more like it
increases and decreases?
DuckyTate: I miss each of them each and every day,
and I feel like I am not doing enough
because I can not care for those
children as well.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: I hear how much you miss your children.
Are you saying that you wish so much
that you could be giving the children
you have lost the same kind of daily
love and care you are able to give your
living children?
DuckyTate: Yes. I have 3 boys and I girl but not
being able to love and raise all 4 boy
and all 4 girls leave me feeling like
what ever I do is simply not enough. No
matter how full my life looks I still
feel empty.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: You deeply miss the children you have
lost. You feel an empty place in your
life that you wish they were there to
fill.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Sometimes it can help to write to a
child who was lost--annually or at
different times during a
year--expressing what we feel, what we
wish we could be doing with them and for
them at that time. Talking about the
same kind of thing with friend or at a
grief support group or with a counselor
can be very helpful. Women need outlets
for their grief.
Webmama_Tina: i made a blog
Webmama_Tina: upcoming chatters: Stayseeliz
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: That's great, Tina. A blog is one way to
honor our experience and our child's
life and death. A way to create
information and companionship for
another mother who may be feeling alone.
Webmama_Tina: helps to keep him alive in other's minds
too...
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Yes.
Webmama_Tina: are we ready for the next question?
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Yes.
Webmama_Tina: stayseeliz
Webmama_Tina: you're up mama!
Stayseeliz: How can we help others understand what
we're going through in grieving for our
loss. My miscarriage was just 3 weeks
ago and it seems like everyone just
expects life to have gotten back to
normal. I feel like I'm the only one
grieving for this baby.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: That's a very good question.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Sometimes we are able to communicate
successfully with those around us that
we're grieving. Sometimes we have to
look for understanding and support
elsewhere.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Sometimes those around us are also
grieving and aren't able to support us
as well as they might if they weren't
also grieving.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Straightforward statements about what we
are experiencing, sharing a chapter
written for family members in a book on
perinatal loss and infant death, or
sharing a website with the person from
whom we're hoping to gain support can
help.
Stayseeliz: What are good books on perinatal loss? I
honestly haven't found much.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Sometimes we need more than those around
us are capable of giving, either because
they are grieving, too, or because they
just don't understand what this kind of
loss is like. Support is still essential
and women can find it from support
groups (local or online), in books, from
a counselor, etc. If you can't find
support in your own circle, keep looking
because it is essential for grieving
well.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: The Resource section of my website has a
variety of resources, including books,
on pregnancy loss and infant death that
women may find helpful.
www.lifecirclecc.com
Webmama_Tina: there's truly nothing like sharing w/one
who's been there too
Webmama_Tina: MDC's loss board is good
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: This is so true, Tina. Books can be very
validating. But talking with someone who
is not afraid of your grief and who can
be with you and listen to you is
priceless.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Is there another question?
Stayseeliz: Thank you!
alaskamom: could I ask one?
Webmama_Tina: i don't have anyone in queue....
Webmama_Tina: yes alaska
alaskamom: I have had 4 miscarriages. Just gave
birth last week. 5th try.
alaskamom: My question...
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: You're welcome. Best wishes with your
grieving, Styseelize. I'm so sorry for
your loss.
alaskamom: I am having a heck of a time with
breastfeeding - now have mastitis. I'm
terrified that I will lose this opp
alaskamom: do my miscarriages have anything to do
with my breastfeeding probs now?
alaskamom: only feeding on 1 breast - other too
swollen hot and hard so pumping.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: What kind of breastfeeding problems,
besides mastitis, have you been having?
alaskamom: I'm not sure if she is getting enough on
left breast only
alaskamom: she wants to be on breast 24/7 - but is
that just comfort?
alaskamom: and of course there is terrible nipple
pain but I hear that is normal at first.
alaskamom: her latch has been checked and is good.
alaskamom: right breast seems to have
congealed
milk, cannot pump out more than a few
drops at a time
alaskamom: this all happened with her latching on
very nicely and sucking well
alaskamom: so it seems to be me
alaskamom: this is day 9
alaskamom: problems started day 4
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Newborns commonly nurse frequently and
around the clock. This is normal--though
not always culturally acceptable! That
said, non-stop nursing can also be a
sign that a baby is having a hard time
transferring milk. A mother's nipples
may be somewhat tender early in a
feeding and soon after birth, but if the
pain persists throughout the feeding and
goes on and on after birth, it's a
signal that something needs changing.
Latch can look great and still not be.
Sometimes folks don't know to also check
what the nipple looks like immediately
after a feeding. If the nipple has a
white or red compression stripe across
the tip or is angled somewhat like a new
tube of lipstick, then it has been
compressed against the hard palate and
latch was not deep enough--no matter how
good it looked from the outside.
alaskamom: ok, chalk that up as another problem -
lipstick shape and white ridge across it
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Sometimes women who fertility challenges
also have breastfeeding challenges
because of hormonal imbalances (e.g.,
polycystic ovarian syndrome).
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: It sounds like you need a good long
visit with an International Board
Certified Lactation Consultant and/or a
La Leche League Leader to help you sort
this all out.
alaskamom: I've been in touch with LLL and they
have helped a little. Also have seen 2
different lactation consultants at
hospital - 2nd one is awesome. And
reading Jack Newman breastfeeding book.
alaskamom: all 4 miscarriages happened around 6-7
weeks - I attribute it to drop in
progesterone because this time, we
boosted my progesterone. I will keep
checking with my consultant.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Jack's book is excellent. If you've
found a good LC, you could keep working
with her to continue addressing these
challenges.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Best wishes to you.
alaskamom: thanks. I've had enough losses. Just
didn't want to lose out on this.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Yes, breastfeeding can become even more
valued in the context of so much loss.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Is there another question, Tina?
Webmama_Tina: well i'd actually like to ask one
Webmama_Tina: what do you suggest for the siblings?
Webmama_Tina: as far as what is shared with them...how
much and what ages?
Webmama_Tina: my feeling has always been that its a
part of her reality, so i shared it with
her
Webmama_Tina: i wanted her to know why mommy was so
sad and angry and out of it
Webmama_Tina: we talked about it a lot and she drew
lots of pictures...she was 3.5yrs when
we lost her brother at birth
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Children need to be able to make sense
of the world around them and the people
in it, otherwise they can feel anxious
and unsettled. So when a mother is
grieving, her children need her to be
honest with them so that they don't end
up getting mixed signals that are
confusing: They see Mama crying, but she
says she's fine and nothing's wrong.
Webmama_Tina: she's now 5.5yrs and i feel like she's
really dealt well with her grief...has
fully processed it all, and very healthy
way
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: What we say to our children depends on
their age and understanding....
Webmama_Tina: yes, i worry also about her blaming
herself if it wasn't made clear to her
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Some books on pregnancy loss and infant
death give parents some guidance about
this--Do's and Don'ts that we might not
think about otherwise.
Webmama_Tina: i know children tend to blame themselves
for things...think they are bad or
something...so i wanted to make sure i
was very clear to her that my sadness
was NOT her fault
Webmama_Tina: it was very interesting to me that her
grief stages were practically opposite
of ours
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Children grieve, too, because they were
also expecting and imagining a sibling.
Now they have to adjust their thoughts
and feelings to the fact that their
sibling died. And, you're right, Tina,
children can sometimes believe that they
did something that caused the baby to
die, like plopping down too hard on Mama
one day or thinking in one moment that
they don't want the baby to come because
they want to stay the baby.
Webmama_Tina: when my dh and i were very raw in the
beginning, she almost seemed oblivious
Webmama_Tina: then after we got to the next level of
dealing a little better...that's when
she seemed to hit her raw point and
acted out and cried alot more and talked
more about baelin
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: That's right. Children's grief can be
very different from adults' grief!
Webmama_Tina: yes it was really amazing to watch
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Being responsive to wherever a child is
in their grief is helpful. Making sure
they know that the subject can be talked
about whenever they want to is so
important.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: It sounds like you were able to give
your daughter what she needed to grieve
well.
Webmama_Tina: it seemed like it
Webmama_Tina: do you feel there are times when it is
appropriate to shield some of it though?
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: That can be really hard to do in the
midst of your own grief.
Webmama_Tina: like of course a toddler is not going to
understand....
Stayseeliz: Did I perhaps make a mistake in not
telling my children about my
miscarriage? We decided not to because I
wasn't very far along. But my 5 year old
knew something was going on and seemed
worried. I just told him I was very sad
and that I would feel better.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Yes, we do need to think about what our
particular child can understand and
handle. Simple statements like The baby
we were expecting died.""
Stayseeliz: My children and 5 and 2. And my oldest
wants a baby in the house so badly I
couldn't bare to tell him one was on the
way but it had died.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Then we can see how they respond. Do
they ask questions? Does the death of
the baby show up in their play? And then
we can respond to that.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: It's very hard for anyone outside of a
situation to know what the best approach
is for those inside the situation.
Certainly, handling the situation would
be different if they knew a baby was
expected compared to if they didn't.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: You were honest with your five year old
that you were sad and you also let him
know that he didn't need to try to fix
it. Those are both helpful so he didn't
have to second guess his interpretation
of your being sad.
Stayseeliz: My son didn't know I was pregnant yet as
I felt something might be wrong with the
pregnancy from the start. He was very
sweet when I was going through my
hardest time and would even come and
give me hugs and kisses out of the blue
to make me feel better.
Webmama_Tina: for my situation...i always felt i
needed to be fully honest with her
Webmama_Tina: not to the point that i burdened her...
Webmama_Tina: but this was her reality...she was VERY
excited about the baby
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Children do not need to hear the degree
of detail we might share with an adult
friend. But, they do need to not be put
in the position of second guessing their
recognition that their mother is
grieving. How to find the path in
between those two extremes is a
challenge--the path will not be the same
for all families.
Webmama_Tina: and to be sent to nana's and to expect
to be called back to meet her baby
brother and then to instead be called to
the hospital to say goodbye to her
brother...it just felt like she needed
to know it all
Webmama_Tina: i didn't want to shield her
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Yes, Tina, your situation called for
more information than another situation
might.
Webmama_Tina: i didn't burden her with all my
feelings...but i felt she needed to know
why mommy was so sad for weeks and
months and when i was feeling really
overwhelmed i made sure she knew it was
because i missed baelin and not because
of anything she did
Webmama_Tina: especially since i was very short with
her for a long time
Webmama_Tina: and then with her grieving tantrums, ay
yi yi
Webmama_Tina: we cried together sometimes
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: How is your son now? Do you feel like he
is actively wondering what has happened?
Or do you feel like he's comfortable
with not knowing, is not really curious
about it, and feels sure that you and he
are basically OK and will be basically
OK...
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Mothering can be so hard in the midst of
grieving and grieving can be so hard in
the midst of mothering, can't it, Tina?
Webmama_Tina: i also feel like children that suffer
loss in childhood may be better able to
handle loss as an adult...although i
certainly don't advocate causing loss
just for this purpose...but if its
there, it is their reality
Webmama_Tina: yes you said it!
Webmama_Tina: it also helps at the same time
Webmama_Tina: i think i would have sunk deeper into
depression if i hadn't had another child
to care for
Stayseeliz: I think he's fine with everything now. I
think I did tell him I just didn't feel
well and that I was sad. The only time I
think we was really scared was the day I
found out I would miscarry. I think he
just thinks I was sick for that week
that was so hard.
Webmama_Tina: i can see wanting to shield them if you
can....i don't know what i would have
done if it had been different
Stayseeliz: My children have also been my lifeline.
Taking care of them has gotten me
through the last 3 weeks. But rocking my
daughter and seeing her silliness makes
me so sad that I won't ever get to
interact with the baby I lost that way.
Webmama_Tina: she knows about my miscarriage before
her and she fully experienced the loss
of baelin...she is wise now beyond her
years...i just wish she didn't have to
be
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: That's the bottom line, Styseeliz: that
however we handle the situation, it
looks like our children are doing all
right. There's more than one right" way
to do that, Stayseeliz."
Stayseeliz: I will tell the children when they're
older about my miscarriage. I hate that
miscarriage is such a taboo subject in
society. Like if you acknowledge it that
it might happen to you.
DuckyTate: (sorry to but in) In my family learning
of my Mother's and my GrandMothers m/c's
did not happen until after I had a m/c
of my own.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Yes, Tina. I think we can teach our
children that while we can't avoid
losses in life, we can learn to grieve
our losses well. If children never find
out about any loss or see how grownups
cope well with loss--reaching out for
support, expressing how they feel,
engaging in much-needed self-care,
honoring their experience and the life
and death of a child--how will they
learn how to do this as adults? These
kinds of lessons don't have to be
learned all at once. Sometimes we talk
about just a piece of the whole
experience at one age, add some more
information at another age, etc.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Yes, many of us grew up internalizing
our society's taboos about talking about
pregnancy loss and infant death. It
makes it very hard for us to do what we
might need to do to grieve well, like
talk about our loss!
Webmama_Tina: yes ducky i noticed that w/alot of
people....once i lost, all o f a sudden
i learned of so many i knew had also
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: When we hear about someone else's loss,
we often feel many feelings--including
empathy for them as well as fear for
ourselves. What if this happens to me?
Stayseeliz: The MOST helpful thing to me during
those dark dark days was knowing other
women had walked through the same valley
I was going through and had survived.
Our former pastor's wife called and she
was such a blessing to me as I knew she
had been where I was.
Webmama_Tina: the comment that always gets me is oh i
don't know how you do it...i couldn't
handle that if that happened to me""
Webmama_Tina: but you do
Webmama_Tina: you deal with what lives gives you
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: And, it can be really hard for us to
talk about our loss when we feel
on-guard for unhelpful responses from
others. : (
Webmama_Tina: i don't feel extraordinary...i just got
dealt a crappy deal and i'm dealing with
it
Webmama_Tina: anyone else in my shoes would do the
same....or just completely die inside,
which wasn't an option for me with
another child
Stayseeliz: I agree Cynthia. My husband didn't
understand why I didn't want to tell
everyone at church at first. And it was
because I didn't want to hear You can
have another" or "It was good that it
happened early." I know they're trying
to be helpful but that hurt."
Webmama_Tina: oh yes! i hate those comments1
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Yes, just knowing that someone else felt
this gut-wrenching emptiness and
horrible grief and lived through it can
help us keep taking one moment at a time
until we are finally, finally in a
better place than we started in.
Webmama_Tina: i got the you're young, you can have
another" comment from someone who had
suffered a loss!"
Webmama_Tina: shocked me
Webmama_Tina: and i got he's in a better place" from a
nurse in the hospital less than 24hours
after we lost him!"
Webmama_Tina: i could have strangled her!
Stayseeliz: We're getting ready to move back to my
husband's hometown next month and I'm
going to start a pregnancy and infant
loss support group there. I don't want
anyone to have to go through what I did
alone.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Any statement that communicates to a
mother that she shouldn't be feeling
what she is feeling or trivializes her
loss is not only unhelpful, it may
increase her risk of not being able to
grieve well.
DuckyTate: Those comments left me in tears and that
hurt the people I was speaking to
because they were trying to help me. The
worst for me was You have 3 children
already what would you have done with
another baby""
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: That's great, Stayseeliz. What a
wonderful thing to do.
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Sigh, DuckyTate. I'm so sorry you had to
endure such hurtful comments.
DuckyTate: Stayseeliz best of luck with your new
group
Stayseeliz: I think statements like that have made
me feel like I'm not justified in
grieving for this child. Like I should
be over it. I think that's why I'm
struggling so much now. I haven't let
myself grieve.
Webmama_Tina: unfortunately, mamas, i need to go now
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Tina, what a comment for the nurse to
have made at such a time!
Webmama_Tina: baby's just not handling this well
anymore and my friend's here to help me
clean house
Webmama_Tina: i know!
Stayseeliz: I better go as well. I need to get the
children down for a nap.
Webmama_Tina: horrid1
Webmama_Tina: i am thinking of sending a letter to the
hospital...i just never got around to
it...but i think i still may
Webmama_Tina: the what to says and the what not to
says
Webmama_Tina: if i had not been in such shock i would
have said there IS no better place than
in his mommy's arms""
Stayseeliz: Thank you all so much for talking and
for your support. I'm going to be more
proactive in seeking out help.
Webmama_Tina: thank you so much mamas for this really
great chat! you are welcome to stay and
continue chatting
Webmama_Tina: i'll just close out the official chat
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Thank you all for sharing your
experiences or for listening in while
others shared. I'm so sorry for your
losses. I hope you found this Chat a
supportive place.
Webmama_Tina: stay as long as you like and talk
Webmama_Tina: thank you cynthia!!!
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: I had better sign off, too, Tina. Take
care everyone.
DuckyTate: When I hear of
another loss I have
learned to wish them strength prayers
and healing on every level, because that
is what I NEEDED to hear at those times
Webmama_Tina: another great chat!!
Webmama_Tina: yes i just say i'm so sorry""
Webmama_Tina: and leave it at that
Webmama_Tina: that's really all you can say
Webmama_Tina: cuz nothing makes it better
Webmama_Tina: i like the healing thing ducky
Webmama_Tina: i'm going to remember that
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: You're very welcome. Those are
beautiful and appropriate wishes,
DuckyTate, to share with a grieving
mother.
Stayseeliz: Yes. People just want to know others
care and will help if they need help.
Webmama_Tina: take care all! hope to see you chatting
again soon!
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: And grieving mothers need people who are
not afraid of grief and can just be with
them as they are grieving--listening,
providing practical help, etc.
Stayseeliz: I agree Cynthia!
Stayseeliz: Again thank you all so much! Peace to
you all! This was so wonderful!
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: Ladies, I forgot to mention earlier that
I am gathering women's narratives about
their experience with lactation and
breastfeeding after a pregnancy loss or
infant death. More information is
available from the Research page of my
website
www.lifecirclecc.com .
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: I'm planning on writing about this issue
so that mothers as well as health care
providers will have more information
about this topic.
DuckyTate: marked it to favorites
Cynthia_Good_Mojab: All right, back to mothering. : ) Take
care. |
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