|
13:27:54 |
Webmama_Tina |
ok marilyn, how about you introduce
yourself and tell us all your background
and expertise? |
|
13:28:00 |
Webmama_Tina |
in case there's some that don't know who
you are :) |
|
13:28:29 |
Webmama_Tina |
and mamas, just go ahead and throw out a
question mark and i'll start creating
the list of who goes when |
|
13:29:42 |
kmecke |
? |
|
13:30:25 |
nocirc |
I witnessed a circumcision for the first
time. I was horried by what I saw. In
1985, I was fired from my job for
telling parents what I wished I'd been
told. That's when I started NOCIRC. I've
been working towards genital integrity
for 27 years this may... |
|
13:30:30 |
nocirc |
Marilyn |
|
13:30:30 |
Webmama_Tina |
upcoming chatters: kmecke |
|
13:31:13 |
Webmama_Tina |
marilyn are you ready for the first
question? |
|
13:31:56 |
nocirc |
Whoops, I dont' know what happened to
the first part of my message. I had said
that, as a nursing student, trying to
become certified as a midwife, I
witnessed a circumcision... This was 10,
17, and 20 years after my own precious
sons were circumcised becaus I didn't
know enough to protect them. |
|
13:32:23 |
nocirc |
Yes, I'm ready for the first question. |
|
13:32:35 |
Webmama_Tina |
ok kmecke, you're up! |
|
13:32:49 |
kmecke |
What all does No Circ do to help the
movement? |
|
13:34:33 |
dad_of_1_2005 |
? |
|
13:35:10 |
Webmama_Tina |
upcoming chatters: dad_of_1_2005 |
|
13:36:13 |
TigerTail |
(i hit enter before editing or adding a
'?' accidentally, sorry!) |
|
13:36:33 |
TigerTail |
ooh shoot that wasn't supposed to show.
chat newbie, sorry. |
|
13:36:43 |
Webmama_Tina |
LOL, no worries tiger |
|
13:37:32 |
Webmama_Tina |
i'm guessing marilyn is typing? |
|
13:37:56 |
Webmama_Tina |
*mcwelcome* |
|
13:38:02 |
nocirc |
I publish the NOCIRC Annual Newsletter
ever spring to let folks know what's
been happening for the year since the
last one. I also send out a NOCIRC Fall
Update to all our contributors. Every
two years, I organize the International
Symposia on Circumcision, Genital
Integrity and Human Rights. The next one
is scheduled for 24-26 August 2006 at
the University of Washington. The
proceedings are published by an academic
publisher and appear in university
libraries worldwide. NOCIRC has a series
of educational pamphlets on our website
at
www.nocirc.org . Feel free to
download them, copy them, and pass them
around. I speak with people daily by
phone. I receive about 200 emails every
day. For the past three years, we've
conducted a College Essay Exam, trying
to get students to become aware of the
issue. And, we've just completed a Touch
Test Evaluation Study that mapped the
penis of circumcised and intact males
with regard to sensitivity. The study is
being prepared for submission to a
journal. I also staff booths at the
American Academy of Pediatrics annual
conference every year and whatever other
conferences I can afford. NOCIRC just
placed an ad in American Baby magazine,
and we are getting one thousand visits a
day on our website because of it. We
focus on education because that's what
it takes to make social changes. |
|
13:38:22 |
Webmama_Tina |
ah ha |
|
13:40:12 |
kmecke |
thats so awesome you must be proud of
your work |
|
13:40:35 |
Webmama_Tina |
upcoming chatters: dad_of_1_2005 |
|
13:40:38 |
nocirc |
I simply have to do it and, with the |
|
13:40:49 |
TigerTail |
i had no idea about the 'american baby'
ad, that's great. |
|
13:40:52 |
nocirc |
amount of energy that I put into it,
something should surely move! |
|
13:41:39 |
Webmama_Tina |
dad, you're up! |
|
13:41:42 |
dad_of_1_2005 |
how can one get ahols of you? i have to
go had an emerg. but i have some ?'s
for u |
|
13:41:47 |
nocirc |
You can see the photo that's in the
American Baby ad on our website. If you
want the full ad, write to me at nocirc@
cris.com . We can get it to you. |
|
13:42:45 |
nocirc |
As you can see, my contact info is
nocirc@cris.com . I'll be happy to
answer your questions. Sorry I was late
getting on, I thought it was at one
today. |
|
13:43:10 |
dad_of_1_2005 |
it ok wish i could stay ill email u |
|
13:43:16 |
dad_of_1_2005 |
thanks take care all\ |
|
13:43:17 |
Webmama_Tina |
ok i have a question... |
|
13:43:35 |
Webmama_Tina |
i have a local babyfest coming up... |
|
13:43:50 |
Webmama_Tina |
bear w/me, typing 1-handed w/sleeping
babe |
|
13:44:20 |
Webmama_Tina |
would love to share your info at the
fest.... |
|
13:44:31 |
Webmama_Tina |
do you travel to do fests? |
|
13:44:42 |
Webmama_Tina |
nonprofit booths are free |
|
13:45:14 |
Webmama_Tina |
or we could include your info in the
goody bags at the gate if you can't come |
|
13:45:28 |
kmecke |
? |
|
13:45:29 |
nocirc |
I'll be happy to provide some for you.
Yes, I do travel but usually need help
with expenses because we truly are a
non-profit organization. Non-profits
usually get a reduction in the amount
that needs to be paid to secure a booth. |
|
13:45:34 |
Webmama_Tina |
www.fresnobabyfest.com its may 20 |
|
13:45:53 |
Webmama_Tina |
our nonprofits are free |
|
13:46:11 |
nocirc |
Lucky you! |
|
13:46:16 |
Webmama_Tina |
:) |
|
13:47:13 |
Webmama_Tina |
ok i guess we could talk via email about
it...it just was a thought i had |
|
13:47:16 |
Webmama_Tina |
:) |
|
13:47:18 |
nocirc |
The non-profit price for the American
Academy of Pediatrics booth is about
$1700. The ACOG booth is $2500, but ACOG
hasn't let us in yet. This is my second
year to apply. Still waiting to hear... |
|
13:47:29 |
Webmama_Tina |
wow |
|
13:47:38 |
Webmama_Tina |
that's ridiculous! |
|
13:47:48 |
kmecke |
yea that is crazy |
|
13:47:57 |
Webmama_Tina |
we're small but growing every year |
|
13:48:04 |
nocirc |
Yes, and, as you can imagine, money is
always the issue for a non-profit. The
American Baby ad, for one month, cost us
$6400. |
|
13:48:44 |
Webmama_Tina |
we had about 350 people first
year...nearly double the second...this
is our 3rd and we hope to double again |
|
13:48:55 |
Webmama_Tina |
woah |
|
13:49:14 |
TigerTail |
the snide part of me wonders if nestle
pays that for a good start ad (of course
not, as a nestle publication, but the
snide part had to kick that in) |
|
13:49:25 |
Webmama_Tina |
lol |
|
13:49:33 |
meemama2005 |
? |
|
13:49:53 |
Webmama_Tina |
ok mamas...who else has a question for
marilyn? post a question mark |
|
13:49:56 |
Webmama_Tina |
ah |
|
13:49:59 |
Webmama_Tina |
meemama2005 |
|
13:50:02 |
nocirc |
It was worth it, considering the number
of mothers it has reached. The photo of
my handsome son-in-law and grandson
caught everyone's eye. If you want the
full ad, let me know. We can give you
the graphics for local parenting
magazines or throw-aways, too, if you're
interested. We also made a 30-second
Public Service Announcement, which we
have available for people to take to
their Public Access Stations. |
|
13:50:03 |
Webmama_Tina |
go for it |
|
13:50:28 |
TigerTail |
(i saw the ad, they are beautiful!) |
|
13:50:28 |
Webmama_Tina |
wow he IS handsome! |
|
13:50:33 |
meemama2005 |
My son is not circumcised, thank
goodness |
|
13:50:48 |
meemama2005 |
I had to work to convince my spouse.... |
|
13:50:51 |
nocirc |
Bless you! And, one day, he'll thank
you! |
|
13:51:01 |
meemama2005 |
My question has to do when my beautiful
soon gets older |
|
13:51:05 |
nocirc |
Your son, that is. |
|
13:51:07 |
meemama2005 |
like when he is in the locker room |
|
13:51:17 |
meemama2005 |
and he sees that he is different |
|
13:51:32 |
meemama2005 |
we'll work with him, of course |
|
13:51:36 |
meemama2005 |
my husband will |
|
13:51:36 |
TigerTail |
gloriously different (i love that siggy,
lol) |
|
13:51:55 |
meemama2005 |
have any suggestions, thoughts about how
to address this concern with him |
|
13:52:08 |
Webmama_Tina |
for latecomers... |
|
13:52:12 |
Webmama_Tina |
Welcome to this week's Mothering
Sponsored chat! This is a moderated
chat. Please make sure you read and
fully understand the Moderated Chat
Instructions before participating in
this chat. Instructions can be found
here:
http://www.mommychats.com/modrules.htm
...A Friendly Reminder: Please do not
post unless it is your turn to ask a
question. If you have a question, please
post a single ?" and you'll be added to
the queue. Have your question ready when
your name is called." |
|
13:52:31 |
kmecke |
? |
|
13:52:46 |
Webmama_Tina |
upcoming chatters: kmecke |
|
13:53:17 |
nocirc |
The locker room won't be an issue with
the circ rate now at 55% nationally.
Before my grandson went to kindergarten,
I told him that children can be very
cruel (they called me four-eyes because
I wore glasses), and I told him that
some men said they were teased because
they were intact. My 5-year-old grandson
said, Don't you worry, Nana, I won't
tease them back. They've been hurt
enough already." So, just let your son
know that every boy looked like he does
when they were born. The circumcised
boys now have a scar instead of the
important foreskin, so it's a sad
situation. Kids know how lucky they
are!" |
|
13:54:09 |
taz925 |
? |
|
13:54:16 |
meemama2005 |
thanks |
|
13:54:29 |
meemama2005 |
I know that was a simple question |
|
13:54:44 |
Webmama_Tina |
upcoming chatters: kmecke , taz925 |
|
13:55:02 |
kmecke |
Are there any medical reasons for circ? |
|
13:55:08 |
nocirc |
I should add that, 27 years ago, when I
began my work, parents asked what they
could say to their sons about being
different. Today, most calls are from
mothers who want to tell their son who
just asked Mommy, why did you let
someone cut off part of my penis. My
friends have all of theirs."" |
|
13:55:32 |
kmecke |
thats awesome |
|
13:55:36 |
meemama2005 |
wow! |
|
13:56:38 |
nocirc |
Yes, there are medical reasons for
circumcision, but they are not the same
as the scare tactics" and fear-based
medicine that lead most people to saying
yes to circumcision. The true reasons
for circumcision are: frostbite,
gangrene, penile cancer (a rare disease
of elderly men), and unreparable trauma.
That's it!" |
|
13:57:15 |
kmecke |
what about UTI? |
|
13:57:33 |
kmecke |
i mean how they say uncirc boys have a
higher chance? |
|
13:58:04 |
Webmama_Tina |
upcoming chatters: taz925 |
|
13:58:38 |
nocirc |
The studies about UTI were
methodologically flawed. About 98.8% of
infants and children will never get a
UTI. When girls get a UTI, what do we
do? Antibiotics! With boys, they say cut
it off!" Absurd. Simply another excuse." |
|
13:59:05 |
TigerTail |
? |
|
14:00:04 |
Webmama_Tina |
upcoming chatters: taz925, TigerTail |
|
14:00:19 |
taz925 |
What do I say to DS#1 when he askes why
I let him be circ'd and not his younger
brother? |
|
14:00:34 |
nocirc |
Whoops, I just checked. Those stats are
wrong. It's 98.6% of intact boys will
never get a UTI, and 99.86% of
circumcised boys get a UTI. The
difference is 1.26%...certainly no
reason to cut off normal, healthy,
protective, erogenous tissue off the
body of the majority of non-consenting
minors! |
|
14:01:53 |
nocirc |
You tell him, When your dad and you were
born, we thought circumcision was
important for health and hygiene. Now we
know better. We're sorry that we didn't
know soon enough to protect you. If we
could do it over, we would have
protected you from circumcision, too."" |
|
14:01:56 |
kmecke |
? |
|
14:03:44 |
nocirc |
Since no one is submitting a question
just now, let me say that not one
national or international medical
organization recommends circumcision and
some, now recognizing the harm and
lifelong consequences, have begun to
recommend against it. |
|
14:04:21 |
MoonJelly |
? |
|
14:04:34 |
TigerTail |
(Am I supposed to go now?) Do you ever
come to the 'Case Against Circ' forum at
MDC? (We would love to see you. ;)) |
|
14:05:11 |
Webmama_Tina |
upcoming chatters: TigerTail, kmecke,
MoonJelly |
|
14:05:16 |
Webmama_Tina |
that's fine tiger |
|
14:05:18 |
nocirc |
I've never been invited but would be
happy to participate if it will help. |
|
14:05:51 |
TigerTail |
Oh my goodness, please come! We would be
honored & inspired. |
|
14:06:31 |
TigerTail |
You have now been officially invited. :D |
|
14:06:44 |
nocirc |
How do I do that? Why don't you email me
separately so we don't take time on it
now. It's
nocirc@cris.com |
|
14:07:04 |
Webmama_Tina |
upcoming chatters: kmecke, MoonJelly |
|
14:07:10 |
kmecke |
Do uncirc boys have a higher chance of
infecction? |
|
14:09:16 |
nocirc |
No, it's probably the circumcised boys
that have a higher rate of protection.
Remember, the foreskin covers and
protects the urinary meatus, keeping the
urinary track sterile, as it's supposed
to be, just as the labia protect the
vaginal vestibule. And, how do we treat
infections? Antibiotics! Finally, you
can't cut enough off a baby's body to
ensure he will never get an infection.
The idea is ludicrous! |
|
14:10:32 |
nocirc |
On another note, we don't call women
unclitoridectomized," |
|
14:10:52 |
Webmama_Tina |
you mean uncirc'd have higher
protection? (you said circ'd, just want
to clarify) :) |
|
14:11:13 |
nocirc |
so we should begin using the correct
terminology intact," "normal,"
"natural," and "whole." Changing the
language to normal will help us return
to normal." |
|
14:11:34 |
Webmama_Tina |
i like that |
|
14:11:37 |
taz925 |
me too! |
|
14:11:50 |
kmecke |
! |
|
14:12:16 |
Webmama_Tina |
moonjelly, you're up! |
|
14:12:25 |
nocirc |
Yes, sorry, I meant intact boys have a
higher protection. First from the
surgery -- especially now with the
epidemic of methecillin-resistent
Staphylococcus aureus that is causing
scalded skin syndrome, other
life-threatening infections, and death. |
|
14:12:50 |
MoonJelly |
Do you have any recommendations for how
to bring up the subject with a friend or
family member, say a cousin, who is
trying to get pregnant? |
|
14:13:22 |
MoonJelly |
Someone who might be open to the idea,
but is not knowledgeable on the subject
and has probably never spent time
thinking about it and would never think
to ask. |
|
14:13:32 |
MoonJelly |
I think a lot of women don't spend a lot
of time thinking about the subject
(unless they are on MDC:). |
|
14:13:43 |
MoonJelly |
Or do you think that it is not a good
idea to bring it up with a family member
or close friend? It's kind of weird to
just say, so, do you want to talk about
circ today?" LOL!" |
|
14:14:06 |
nocirc |
I usually say, May I share with you some
information I wish I'd had when I was
pregnant. This information would have
spared my sons and me trauma that will
be with us throughout life."" |
|
14:14:27 |
MoonJelly |
Well, I haven't had any sons. And if I
do, they will be kept intact. :) |
|
14:14:43 |
nocirc |
It's crucial to bring up the subject to
anyone who will listen. If we don't
protect those who are too young to
protect themselves, who will? |
|
14:15:57 |
nocirc |
Then, you can say that you don't have
sons but that you are so grateful that
you came across some information that
will prevent your sons from unnecessary,
painful, traumatic surgery...a surgery
you don't feel you have a right to
consent to for a boy who will have to
live with the consequences for the rest
of his life. |
|
14:16:08 |
Webmama_Tina |
what about the reverse of that? someone
that has already decided to circ, again,
and claims to have done the research? is
there anything else that can be said? |
|
14:17:11 |
MoonJelly |
I put some links in my sig whenever I
email her. ;) |
|
14:17:50 |
nocirc |
If someone claims to have done the
research and still wants to circumcise
their baby, you can rest assured they
didn't do enough research or they still
haven't gotten it. I'd say, If you're
still planning on allowing unnecessary,
non-therapeutic surgery for your son,
you still don't recognize the immediate
risks and lifelong consequences that
your son will suffer because of it."" |
|
14:17:53 |
MoonJelly |
My cousin, that is. |
|
14:18:42 |
Webmama_Tina |
here here |
|
14:18:46 |
nocirc |
I would give your cousin the first four
articles at
www.nocirc.org , click on Directory"
and again on "Important Articles."" |
|
14:19:44 |
kmecke |
one thing we could do to help is order a
bunch of those pamphlets and keep them
handy for whenever we are with a prenant
mother or in a place alot of mothers go
we could leave one |
|
14:19:48 |
MoonJelly |
Cool. Thanks! I need to go now, but
thanks for the great info. Good luck in
your endeavors. It's good to know
people are out htere doing what you are
doing. Take care! |
|
14:20:14 |
nocirc |
Also, have your cousin go to
www.intact.ca/video.html , where she
can watch an anesthetized newborn scream
throughout the unnecessary procedure. |
|
14:20:30 |
nocirc |
Thanks! |
|
14:20:43 |
MoonJelly |
It seems like a lot of the time it's not
the mothers that need convincing. |
|
14:20:51 |
MoonJelly |
It's the dads. |
|
14:20:53 |
Webmama_Tina |
any more questions for marilyn? |
|
14:21:09 |
kmecke |
thats ture |
|
14:21:12 |
kmecke |
true* |
|
14:21:13 |
MoonJelly |
With the exception of my (circ'd)
husband. |
|
14:21:19 |
MoonJelly |
He advocated it to me. |
|
14:21:30 |
MoonJelly |
Advocated non-circ I should say. |
|
14:21:31 |
kmecke |
and mine |
|
14:21:36 |
nocirc |
That's true, but when parents realize
that the foreskin is normal, protective,
sexually functioning tissue and that
circumcision diminishes the size and
sensitivity of the penis, they often
think twice. Especially the dads! |
|
14:21:56 |
MoonJelly |
My DH is mad that he doesn't have a
foreskin. |
|
14:22:09 |
kmecke |
yea... thats what get them is knowing
its better sexually |
|
14:22:20 |
net |
he could restore it MoonJelly |
|
14:22:24 |
MoonJelly |
Anyway, I really should go! Bye! |
|
14:22:27 |
nocirc |
You have courageous husbands who are
willing to look at the scar on their
body and to face the psychological
scars, too. You've found exceptional men
to marry. They're keepers! |
|
14:22:31 |
MoonJelly |
Interesting... |
|
14:22:41 |
net |
true my dh is MoonJelly |
|
14:22:43 |
kmecke |
haha |
|
14:24:36 |
skrhythm |
? |
|
14:24:38 |
nocirc |
Women often say no to circumcision when
they understand that circumcision
interferes with the maternal/infant
bond, disrupts both breastfeeding and
normal sleep patterns, and undermines
the infant's first developmental task of
establishing trust. We can mitigate some
of the harmful effects, but there is
damage to the integrity of the infant
and we must recognize that. |
|
14:25:37 |
Webmama_Tina |
ok mamas, i have to take my son to the
dr.... |
|
14:25:47 |
Webmama_Tina |
skrhythm, you can ask your question |
|
14:25:48 |
nocirc |
I'll go to my grave knowing that my
three sons will never know the wholeness
of their body or the fullness of their
sexual experience because I didn't know
enough to protect them. I've apologized
so many times, they're sick of hearing
it. But, now I have four intact
grandsons! |
|
14:26:07 |
skrhythm |
my dh father (my father in law) got
circumsised later in life in his 30?
because of some infection of some type |
|
14:26:17 |
nocirc |
I hope he gets well soon, Tina! |
|
14:26:43 |
skrhythm |
most of my family in law is afraid of
children staying intact because of what
he had to deal with |
|
14:26:48 |
Webmama_Tina |
me too, thanks! if you ladies want to
stick around and just casually continue
this chat, that's totally
fine...whatever you want to do marilyn |
|
14:27:05 |
skrhythm |
what reasons do i give them? |
|
14:27:15 |
nocirc |
If your father-in-law lived in another
country, where the foreskin is
acknowledged as important, antibiotics,
not circumcision, would have been the
therapy. |
|
14:27:18 |
skrhythm |
i have 3 girls thus far so haven't had
to worry |
|
14:27:50 |
nocirc |
So, they want to put a baby through the
pain of the circumcision out of fear of
something that might happen later. They
should be afraid of the circumcision
itself instead! |
|
14:27:50 |
Webmama_Tina |
is it true that most late in life circs
are because of either ignorance or
damage done from retracting an intact
foreskin? |
|
14:28:00 |
skrhythm |
apparently it was very painful both how
he felt before and after |
|
14:28:22 |
skrhythm |
i agree |
|
14:29:05 |
skrhythm |
but it is like getting wisdom teeth
pulled no? get rid of them just in case
they get cavities and infected? |
|
14:29:28 |
nocirc |
Probably ignorance, although messing
with the intact penis can cause
problems. Most docs never learned
anything about the normal structures,
functions, care, and development of the
intact penis when they were in medical
school. As circumcised males, they don't
know what they're missing. |
|
14:30:15 |
skrhythm |
both nephews were cut and they healed
fine |
|
14:30:25 |
Webmama_Tina |
ok, marilyn, are you ok with me leaving
you to continue? you don't have to do it
in the moderated format now if you don't
want...there's not a ton of people in
here so i can't imagine it would get too
chaotic... |
|
14:30:29 |
nocirc |
That's fear-based medicine. As my mother
used to say Never trouble trouble til
trouble troubles you!" Prophylactic
amputative procedures on non-consenting
minors are a human rights violation!" |
|
14:30:29 |
Webmama_Tina |
if not, we can close up now |
|
14:30:33 |
skrhythm |
guess the argument is babies did fine,
grandpa suffered |
|
14:30:37 |
Webmama_Tina |
i do have to jam though or else i'm
going to be late |
|
14:31:19 |
nocirc |
Hi Tina, I'll stay on as long as someone
has questions...or til I am exhausted...
I'm glad to answer the questions and
share what I've come to learn from all
the people who have taught me so much. |
|
14:31:52 |
Webmama_Tina |
ok great! you ladies enjoy the rest of
your chat! i'll post the transcripts
later! :) |
|
14:31:58 |
Webmama_Tina |
take care! and thanks SOOO much
marilyn!!!! |
|
14:32:07 |
Webmama_Tina |
i'll email you about babyfest |
|
14:32:09 |
nocirc |
My pleasure. Glad to be here! |
|
14:32:22 |
nocirc |
Great about babyfest. |
|
14:32:43 |
nocirc |
Next? |
|
14:33:24 |
nocirc |
Anyone there with a question? |
|
14:33:26 |
aldeia |
sk tell them the babies did NOT do fine.
and gpa suffered because of medical
ignorance, not his foreskin. |
|
14:33:41 |
net |
? |
|
14:34:03 |
nocirc |
Great response, aldeia. |
|
14:34:13 |
skrhythm |
thank you |
|
14:34:42 |
aldeia |
i learned it from you, marilyn :-) |
|
14:34:54 |
net |
my ds 5 was done but it is only half cut
off should i be getting him to pull it
back and clean it out |
|
14:35:17 |
TigerTail |
anyway, marilyn, you've got mail. :)
(and i saw the public service ad, that's
wonderful.) |
|
14:35:36 |
net |
and id foreskin restoration safe my dh
is doing his |
|
14:35:43 |
net |
is |
|
14:37:04 |
nocirc |
No, leave it alone. This happened to my
third son, and I realize that he's the
luckiest of my cut sons (funny words we
use in the English language...but one of
the functions of the foreskin is
accommodation of a full erection. Your
son won't experience tight and painful
erections. The foreskin, like the vagina
is self-cleaning. He'll fiddle with it
himself while he's in the bath, which
will aid in discharging sloughed cells
as new cells form (just like the stuff
in the crotch of female underwear -- the
shed vaginal cells). |
|
14:37:37 |
net |
k |
|
14:38:52 |
nocirc |
Yes, non-surgical foreskin restoration
is safe...and it provides a protective
covering for the glans, making it softer
and return to the mucous membrane it's
supposed to be. It also provides the
gliding mechanism that is lacking in the
circumcised penis. European women ask me
how American women can have foreplay
without a foreskin to play with... |
|
14:39:25 |
net |
thanks |
|
14:39:46 |
nocirc |
The thanks goes to your husband! |
|
14:39:51 |
net |
yes |
|
14:40:25 |
TigerTail |
i am going to go out on a limb & invite
everyone (not just marilyn ;)) to the
mothering 'case against circ' board.
there are stickies about restoration,
cleaning, & lots of info.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/forumdisplay.php?f=44
it's foreskin 101 |
|
14:40:48 |
net |
thanks |
|
14:41:20 |
TigerTail |
hope i typed that right, it wouldn't
copy & paste :lol |
|
14:41:51 |
net |
im a member of that mdc web so i don't
need that link but thanks |
|
14:42:56 |
TigerTail |
(web? what, a mama webring, does the
circ forum have one? coolness, wish
there was a sticky about that!) |
|
14:43:38 |
net |
i guess not a member lol but i do post
at mdc |
|
14:43:45 |
nocirc |
No, and perhaps we should...but as you
must imagine, my plate is pretty full.
There are discussion groups, and I'm
happy to join you here or you can email
me with any questions at any time. |
|
14:46:59 |
TigerTail |
yes, i can imagine! it does get pretty
high up on google results though, & is a
good forum to educate (for free.) |
|
14:47:34 |
net |
it is a very good forum i love it |
|
14:47:58 |
nocirc |
Since the HIV/AIDS research is booming
in Africa -- where white American
researchers with loads of government
funding -- are paying intact African
males a year's salary to get cut, to
become educated about safe sex, and to
use condoms, the researchers at the end
of the study will claim it's the
circumcision that reduced the spread of
AIDS. The studies are unethical and the
researcher bias is apparent. In South
Africa, among circumcising tribes, and
in North America, both the circumcision
rate and the HIV/AIDS rates are
extremely high. The HIV/AIDS experiments
failed. Now, how to control those who
are working so persistently to promote
circumcision... |
|
14:48:00 |
TigerTail |
frankly speaking is a penis
professional, lol |
|
14:49:20 |
net |
thats bs you get hiv from anyone who is
infected i really don't think gettiing
circ or not will prevent getting it |
|
14:49:33 |
net |
that's funny lol |
|
14:50:43 |
net |
so what about getting it from a woman if
they are circ to does that mean they
can't get it lol |
|
14:51:05 |
nocirc |
That's right, it won't. In fact, it will
make men and women feel more secure
about unsafe sex practices. In Uganda,
where the president took time to go from
village to village, demystify sex, talk
about the threat of HIV/AIDS, and the
importance of safe sex and condom use,
the rate of the spread of HIV/AIDS has
gone from 15%-5% -- WITHOUT
circumcision! |
|
14:51:24 |
TigerTail |
yes, that study, not factoring in the
amount of time a newly circumcised adult
is going to skip sex entirely- so bogus. |
|
14:51:25 |
aldeia |
why isn't the naacp all over the
circ-for-aids hoax? US scientists
injuring blacks for profit, sounds like
Tuskegee all over again |
|
14:51:29 |
net |
way to miss infore people stuip gov |
|
14:51:33 |
TigerTail |
for real |
|
14:52:08 |
nocirc |
What a GREAT idea!!! I will have Doctors
Opposing Circumcision get on this! |
|
14:52:32 |
nocirc |
Yes, this is like Tuskegee! |
|
14:52:46 |
net |
i heard some where in the world guy are
getting done kind like it cool to |
|
14:53:20 |
net |
cause that contry was against it now
there for it stupid |
|
14:53:28 |
nocirc |
There are circumfetishists...those men
who get off on watching someone else get
circumcision. Good grief! |
|
14:53:50 |
TigerTail |
yup, 'acorn society'. ick. |
|
14:54:21 |
net |
i sure wish i had known more about it
then ds would not have been done 2nd ds
is not done |
|
14:55:17 |
nocirc |
It's not uncommon for a grown man to get
himself circumcised and then to join
others promoting it. I have heard from
more men who are sad about their
circumcision or harmed by it than from
men who are glad it was done. That makes
me wonder if those promoting it as a
wonderful thing are men who can't admit
they made a terrible mistake and want
everyone else to suffer, too. |
|
14:55:32 |
nocirc |
Lucky you! |
|
14:56:04 |
TigerTail |
there is a group of hackers with a site
that roots out child porn posters' i'd.s
& publically lets them be known (as
posters at say, boylovers.com.) i wonder
if they would be interested in finding
out how many pro-circ sites are run by
circumfetishists... |
|
14:56:32 |
net |
my doc told me that for my 5 months old
genertation only about 90% of boys are
getting done now |
|
14:56:41 |
TigerTail |
being that there is a large child porn
crossover within their community. |
|
14:57:03 |
net |
sick perverts let me get ahold of them
lol |
|
14:57:42 |
TigerTail |
these guys. |
|
14:57:45 |
nocirc |
Your doc said 90% are being circumcised?
Where is that? They're waaay behind and
someone is not providing the needed
education and some doctor is making a
lot of money... |
|
14:57:50 |
net |
if i was the law the woulg get there
whole manhood cut off for being perverts |
|
14:57:58 |
TigerTail |
whoops forgot i have to type it out lol |
|
14:58:05 |
net |
no 90% are not getting done 10% are |
|
14:58:32 |
TigerTail |
http://rikijo.blogspot.com |
|
14:58:41 |
nocirc |
Well, that's WONDERFUL! Just 10% more to
go... Where do you live? Sounds like the
west coast. |
|
14:58:56 |
net |
creston B.C Canada |
|
14:59:21 |
TigerTail |
i have to ask the malicious hackers if
they want in on the circumfetishist
dudes. the next time i hear, 'so & so
says...' i can say 'want to see what
they posted on their own turf?' |
|
14:59:50 |
nocirc |
Yes, you Canadians are way ahead of us.
The BC College of Physicians and
Surgeons is one of the medical
associations that has warned docs
against performing
circumcision...recognizing the violation
of human rights. |
|
15:00:23 |
net |
thanks |
|
15:00:28 |
TigerTail |
i need to ask frank about this. he's up
with what pro-circ sites are run by
fetishists- couldn't hurt to give them
more publicity ;P |
|
15:01:08 |
TigerTail |
anyway, gotta split (three kids with the
flu, two needing a nap). thanks again,
it was a pleasure. |
|
15:01:58 |
nocirc |
Thank you. I hope they get well soon. |
|
15:02:52 |
net |
thanks |
|
15:04:06 |
aldeia |
speaking of pervs. When european police
uncovered over 400,000 images of child
porn, they classified circ pics as the
WORST.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/3227734.stm
|
|
15:04:16 |
net |
we have to pay to get circ done our B.C
medical won't cover it |
|
15:04:40 |
net |
use too years ago |
|
15:04:41 |
kmecke |
thas atwesome |
|
15:04:53 |
nocirc |
I look forward to the day that no one
pays for it and every doctor lives up to
his code of conduct, First, do no
harm."" |
|
15:05:15 |
net |
you don't have to pay for it where u
live ? |
|
15:05:42 |
net |
thats stupid it should be out lawed |
|
15:06:14 |
nocirc |
Yes, people have to pay for it...either
their insurance company of Medicaid,
except in the 16 states that no longer
allow Medicaid reimbursement. |
|
15:06:44 |
nocirc |
Yes, just as FGM is outlawed in the US.
That law is unconstitutional, though,
because of its gender bias. |
|
15:09:04 |
net |
how much it cost there |
|
15:10:10 |
nocirc |
It varies, depending on doc and
hospital...anywhere from $250 to $700 or
more. |
|
15:10:16 |
net |
yikes |
|
15:10:59 |
net |
id medicar didn't cover it maybe the
cost would deture people from getting it
done |
|
15:11:50 |
skrhythm |
what are the 16 states that don't cover
it? |
|
15:12:21 |
net |
skrhythm they do just no reemburse it |
|
15:12:28 |
nocirc |
Sometimes it does and sometimes it
doesn't. When I was working at the
hospital, Medicaid parents would come up
with the $100 somehow or another when
they were determined to have their son
cut. |
|
15:13:16 |
kmecke |
we can only pray thatit would keep
people from doing it |
|
15:13:33 |
skrhythm |
i understood that there are 16 states
that will not let unsurance cover the
cost of circ. is this right? if so
what are those states? |
|
15:13:54 |
kmecke |
people complain bc medicaid doesnt pay
for formula... that makes me mad when
they say that |
|
15:14:11 |
net |
what why sould the thats what boob are
for lol |
|
15:14:25 |
nocirc |
Please write to me at
nocirc@cris.com and I'll let
you know the states. I don't have them
in front of me. |
|
15:14:26 |
net |
i cannot spell today lol |
|
15:14:35 |
skrhythm |
ok |
|
15:15:04 |
nocirc |
It's Medicaid that's not payiing for
circ in 16 states, not insurance
companies. |
|
15:15:29 |
net |
must be the welfare bums that complain
taking there drug ans booze money away
from them to by formula lol |
|
15:15:51 |
kmecke |
haha |
|
15:16:51 |
net |
i know so many people in this town that
have more kids just to get more welfare,
makes me so mad |
|
15:17:28 |
net |
well i know of them i don't want those
kind of people as my friends |
|
15:17:30 |
nocirc |
Not everyone on welfare is a bum. My
first husband left me 5 weeks before my
daughter was born. I had two small sons.
I was on welfare for the first few years
of my daughter's life because I was
willing to endure the shame,
humiliation, horrible treatment thrust
upon me so that I could stay home with
my precious children until they were
older. They'd been abandoned by their
father and I wasn't going to abandom
them, too. And, I breastfed my children. |
|
15:18:06 |
net |
i know im sorry did not mean it that way
but alot of peole don't need to be on it |
|
15:18:37 |
net |
they are to lazy to get a job |
|
15:18:58 |
net |
if you need it use it don't abuse it |
|
15:19:01 |
net |
lol |
|
15:20:10 |
kmecke |
there was an article in an older
mothering mag about mothers who are on
welfare and the abuse she got from it |
|
15:20:13 |
nocirc |
Everyone is doing the best they can with
what they have at the time. Wouldn't it
be great if we had a society where
people didn't need to be on welfare!
And, yes, there will always be those who
will abuse a system, but I'd rather pay
for them so that those in need -- like I
was -- can be helped, too. I think, when
we think about where the money is, we
should be looking at the crooks at the
other end of the economic scale. People
on welfare get darn little and can
merely survive, they are not thriving! |
|
15:20:26 |
kmecke |
its a good article u should check it out |
|
15:20:37 |
net |
TRUE |
|
15:21:27 |
nocirc |
Yes, I have never been treated so
cruelly as I was in 1963-1967 when I was
a welfare recipient. |
|
15:22:07 |
net |
i don't know how much they pay there but
my friend was on it and she was getting
more than i was working full time |
|
15:23:21 |
nocirc |
This was many years ago but I received
$190/month. My rent was $75/month
because I cleaned the apartment building
to bring the price of my rent down. |
|
15:24:08 |
nocirc |
Whoops, that was $85/month for my
apartment. I did NOT have enough to
support me and three children. There
were many hungry days! |
|
15:24:10 |
net |
wow thats not much |
|
15:25:32 |
kmecke |
i just watched that circ video... oh my
gosh that is soooooooo sad... i didnt
realize so much got cut off |
|
15:26:03 |
kmecke |
im going to send the address to a friend
who wants to have a baby.. hopefully
this will convice against circ |
|
15:26:17 |
nocirc |
My grandmother sent me $20 a month for
three years. I felt horribly guilty
because I wasn't claiming it but I could
not have made it without that help. The
system is set up to keep people down
under and it is only through
manipulation at some level that people
can subsist, at best, on the help
provided. |
|
15:27:09 |
nocirc |
Yes, circumcision IS sad. I still suffer
from post traumatic stress after
witnessing a circumcision in 1979 -- and
it wasn't even happening to me! |
|
15:28:26 |
net |
i never saw him get done but i heard him
and that was bad enouhg |
|
15:28:28 |
skrhythm |
what is the link to that video? |
|
15:28:49 |
net |
you don't want to watch that skrhythm |
|
15:28:55 |
skrhythm |
did you? |
|
15:29:11 |
net |
it's to sad I tried to watch one but
couldn't |
|
15:29:44 |
nocirc |
It is difficult to watch! It's for those
people who aren't convinced. The URL is
www.intact.ca/video.html |
|
15:31:05 |
skrhythm |
will take too long to download |
|
15:31:10 |
skrhythm |
oh well! |
|
15:31:41 |
net |
no im doing it like ,well click on it
and it will tell u |
|
15:32:04 |
skrhythm |
didn't understand what you wrote net ? |
|
15:32:22 |
net |
click the link |
|
15:32:25 |
nocirc |
Okay, anymore questions for me before I
leave the discussion? |
|
15:32:27 |
skrhythm |
i did |
|
15:32:55 |
skrhythm |
think i'm all set here thank you for
your time |
|
15:33:13 |
net |
poor baby now im crying |
|
15:33:26 |
nocirc |
You're very welcome! Anyone else? |
|
15:33:32 |
nocirc |
Crying is the right response! |
|
15:33:36 |
skrhythm |
do you have cable or 56K connection? |
|
15:33:45 |
kmecke |
thank you |
|
15:33:47 |
net |
56k |
|
15:33:56 |
net |
thanks |
|
15:34:02 |
skrhythm |
and it didn't take 15 min like it says? |
|
15:34:17 |
net |
mine too about 25 sec |
|
15:34:28 |
skrhythm |
ok i'll try it |
|
15:34:35 |
aldeia |
If circ makes you cry, become an
intactivist! help make the world a safer
place for children |
|
15:34:36 |
skrhythm |
thought you said not to watch it! |
|
15:34:47 |
skrhythm |
now who's watching it!! |
|
15:35:15 |
net |
i had to just wanted to see what i put
my sd through im horrable |
|
15:35:21 |
net |
ds |
|
15:36:21 |
net |
wish i seen that before i got him done |
|
15:37:48 |
net |
skrhythm is it done yet |
|
15:38:04 |
nocirc |
No, you're not horrible, you didn't
know. Someone should have told you. They
should have told me. They should be
telling everyone. In fact, they should
be putting their scalpels down! I made a
video when I was working at the hospital
to show parents. They said, It's too
much for parents to see." I said, "Then
maybe it's too much for a baby to
experience!" Again, it's not your fault,
your doctor should have told you. Write
to that doc and tell him/her how you
feel about it now. Tell the doc that
you're angry and outraged! They won't
stop until we shame them, demand it, and
make it uncomfortable for them." |
|
15:38:57 |
skrhythm |
yes i saw it |
|
15:38:59 |
net |
my mil pressured me to i did not want to
see made me belive it was bad to to do
it she is mad i did not get baby done |
|
15:39:00 |
nocirc |
You signed a consent form but you were
not informed. That was the doctor's job! |
|
15:39:04 |
skrhythm |
chose the short version |
|
15:39:09 |
aldeia |
You can also sue anyone who should have
told you but didn't. |
|
15:39:28 |
nocirc |
Depends on how much time has gone by. We
do have great lawyers that can help. |
|
15:39:31 |
sunflower_mommy2003 |
Hi everyone. |
|
15:39:34 |
net |
not to do it i ment |
|
15:39:37 |
skrhythm |
i thought the babies crys were
interesting |
|
15:39:52 |
skrhythm |
first frantic then sounded to go numb |
|
15:40:10 |
nocirc |
That's when they go into shock. |
|
15:40:16 |
net |
ya passing out from the pain |
|
15:40:21 |
skrhythm |
crazy that it's a common procedure |
|
15:40:23 |
sunflower_mommy2003 |
circoma", I've heard it called." |
|
15:40:31 |
skrhythm |
yes |
|
15:40:51 |
net |
i ment she wanted me to do it lol |
|
15:41:06 |
skrhythm |
and how calm the doc is the whole time |
|
15:41:15 |
net |
a=hole |
|
15:41:15 |
nocirc |
Talk about denial! |
|
15:41:56 |
nocirc |
Wilhelm Reich said, When a person has
repressed an emotion within himself,
he's unable to recognize the expression
of that same emotion in another. You can
bet the doc was circumcised." |
|
15:42:31 |
net |
oh i swear this baby is going to kill me
with the bf latly ouch |
|
15:42:55 |
sunflower_mommy2003 |
net-Your MIL probablly circed your dh
because with the information she had at
the time (which likely, wasn't much) she
thought it was best. And now, she's
defending her own decision through
pressuring you. :-( |
|
15:43:15 |
sunflower_mommy2003 |
How old is your babe, net? |
|
15:43:47 |
net |
yes she has to throw in here friend 10
year old has to get in done now well
that happens sometimes |
|
15:43:51 |
net |
5 months |
|
15:44:32 |
nocirc |
It probably doesn't have to be done, if
he was in a non-circumcising country, it
probably wouldn't be done. |
|
15:44:57 |
net |
the 5 year old id done never getting
baby done unless he would die if he
didn't get it done |
|
15:45:12 |
sunflower_mommy2003 |
Everyone has a horror story, and usually
it's many times removed...like, My
brother's best friend's uncles neighbor
had to be circed when he was 23..."
LOL" |
|
15:45:37 |
net |
lol |
|
15:45:55 |
nocirc |
We can't cut off enough of our children
to protect their body from things that
may befall them somewhere during life. |
|
15:46:09 |
sunflower_mommy2003 |
Very true. |
|
15:46:19 |
net |
and she looks after old people and hates
how she has to pull back there forskin
to clean |
|
15:47:09 |
nocirc |
How does she feel about moving labia to
clean old ladies? |
|
15:47:42 |
net |
oh well get a new job don't make me get
my kids circ cause you hate foreskin, i
do not know |
|
15:48:09 |
nocirc |
Give her NOCIRC's pamphlet #8 on care of
the intact elderly. |
|
15:48:33 |
net |
not worth it she'll blow up at me |
|
15:48:56 |
nocirc |
You have to blow up bigger! It's your
child and reason you're trying to
protect. |
|
15:49:17 |
net |
TRUE |
|
15:49:38 |
nocirc |
Okay, I need to get back to the NOCIRC |
|
15:49:48 |
nocirc |
Annual Newsletter |
|
15:50:07 |
nocirc |
If you need me to answer anything else
before I go, now's the time. |
|
15:50:18 |
net |
i still won't listen to her again, i
wish i could say to her well you son is
restoring his cause you got it cut off
way to go but dh would kill me lol |
|
15:50:34 |
nocirc |
Then, he should tell her! |
|
15:50:40 |
net |
nope, thanks again |
|
15:50:57 |
net |
he won't to embarresing for him to tell
his mom |
|
15:51:24 |
net |
he did't tell me for the first 2 months |
|
15:51:31 |
nocirc |
Well, then, if you're not going to
change her mind or discuss it with her,
just agree to disagree and do what you
want with your own children, as she did
with heres. |
|
15:51:37 |
net |
tes |
|
15:51:45 |
sunflower_mommy2003 |
I think if you hate" to provide basic
hygiene/pericare to patients so much
that you'd advocate unnecessary surgery
on babies to make your job easier, it's
probably time to look into a different
profession." |
|
15:52:02 |
net |
yeah i agree |
|
15:53:02 |
nocirc |
Okay, thanks to you all for being here
with me. If you do have any additional
questions, please feel free to contact
me. |
|
15:53:12 |
skrhythm |
ok |
|
15:53:19 |
aldeia |
Thanks Marilyn goodbye |
|
15:53:21 |
skrhythm |
thank you again |
|
15:53:36 |
sunflower_mommy2003 |
Thanks for coming to the chat, Marilyn.
I'm sorry I missed most of it. |
