|
13:02:42 |
Webmama_Tina |
Mothering Magazine sponsored chat with
guest speaker Sandra Dodd is starting
RIGHT NOW in the Mothering Mag chat
room...Join us! |
|
13:03:32 |
Webmama_Tina |
Sandra Dodd grew up and lives in New
Mexico, where she taught English when
she was younger. Her children never went
to school, and are now 15, 18 and 20.
Sandra and her husband like to play and
sing early period music for fun. Sandra
has been active in online discussions of
unschooling and natural learning for a
dozen years and has an extensive
prairie-dog-village of a website (
www.sandradodd.com ). Sandra has
been published in several magazines, and
the book in which those articles have
been collected, Moving a Puddle, can be
purchased from
http://sandradodd.com/puddlebook . |
|
13:04:28 |
SandraDodd |
And postage is going up very soon, so I
need to change that page soon. But it
hasn't gone up yet! (end of my plug,
totally) |
|
13:04:59 |
Webmama_Tina |
lol sandra |
|
13:05:08 |
SandraDodd |
Yes? |
|
13:05:16 |
Webmama_Tina |
oh that was me laughing at what you said
:) |
|
13:05:29 |
Webmama_Tina |
ok so lets get started and people will
arrive as they can |
|
13:05:43 |
Webmama_Tina |
gave you guest speaker clothes, sandra
:) |
|
13:05:48 |
SandraDodd |
Thanks. |
|
13:05:49 |
Webmama_Tina |
you're now green in the list to the
right too |
|
13:05:58 |
Webmama_Tina |
ok sandra did you want to add anything
to the intro? |
|
13:06:04 |
Webmama_Tina |
abotu yourself or your knowledge? |
|
13:06:07 |
Webmama_Tina |
or anything? :) |
|
13:06:09 |
SandraDodd |
When I play board games I always try to
get the green marker. How appropriate! |
|
13:06:12 |
SandraDodd |
Ah... |
|
13:06:17 |
Webmama_Tina |
lol |
|
13:06:28 |
SandraDodd |
About my knowledge? I can speak to that,
I suppose. |
|
13:06:42 |
SandraDodd |
When I was in first grade I decided I
wanted to be a teacher. |
|
13:07:01 |
SandraDodd |
All through school I paid attention to
what teachers did and how, and why (when
I could figure that out, which was
pretty often) |
|
13:07:13 |
SandraDodd |
And I asked the other kids what they
liked about teachers and what they
didn't |
|
13:07:31 |
SandraDodd |
So I learned LOTS and lots about how
learning works and what factors work for
different kinds of peope |
|
13:07:36 |
SandraDodd |
people (sorry) |
|
13:08:06 |
SandraDodd |
When I was older, 13/14 or so, I wanted
to become a missionary (still
teaching-related), or to work at a
magazine. |
|
13:08:36 |
SandraDodd |
And it seems all those rolled together
are what I've become. I write, and I
help people have happier more peaceful
lives, and it's all about learning. |
|
13:08:40 |
Webmama_Tina |
woops, i forgot to turn off the
entrance/exit notifications...its off
now...anyone bugged by the notices can
refresh their page and relogin to make
them go away :) |
|
13:08:59 |
Webmama_Tina |
that's awesome sandra |
|
13:09:05 |
SandraDodd |
So in a natural-learning way I've been
working up to this always. |
|
13:09:44 |
Webmama_Tina |
did you always unschool your children? |
|
13:10:17 |
SandraDodd |
My children never went to school;
right. Outside my family (or lately
with my two younger kids, actually) I'm
often involved in philosophy discussions
of history and virtues and such, and one
concept that evolved from that was... |
|
13:10:22 |
SandraDodd |
\preparing for one's unseen future.\"" |
|
13:10:36 |
SandraDodd |
And so in that way, I've always been
preparing to be an unschooler, I guess. |
|
13:10:51 |
Webmama_Tina |
they never went to school, got it, but
were they unschooled the entire time or
did that evolve to unschooling over
time? just curious |
|
13:10:56 |
SandraDodd |
And I've seen such things in my
children. Things they've done for fun
have turned into opportunities to help
others (or helped in employment). |
|
13:11:02 |
SandraDodd |
To back up on the knowledge and
preparation, |
|
13:11:35 |
Webmama_Tina |
and mamas, start posting your single
question marks if you want to get in
line to ask sandra a question...i'm
ready to start the queue. ;) |
|
13:11:52 |
SandraDodd |
when I went to college to become a
teacher (I attended from 1970-1974,
University of New Mexico, in the radical
hippie days, at a radical hippie
college) we studied alternative
education heavily. |
|
13:12:29 |
ElijahsMommy |
? |
|
13:12:37 |
SandraDodd |
My oldest was born in 1986 and I joined
La Leche League, here in Albuquerque. I
was in a babysitting co-op in which half
the families homeschooled. |
|
13:12:52 |
SandraDodd |
Two families were unschoolers (and all
LLL) and the other two did school at
home |
|
13:13:23 |
SandraDodd |
So for a couple of years before I had
even considered homeschooling at all, I
interacted frequently with these
families--the kids without the parents,
the parents without the kids, the whole
families all together with other
families. |
|
13:13:24 |
Webmama_Tina |
current chatter: Webmama_Tina
...upcoming chatters: ElijahsMommy |
|
13:13:26 |
SandraDodd |
What a lab!! |
|
13:13:39 |
SandraDodd |
I could not have hoped for a better
experience. |
|
13:13:52 |
SandraDodd |
And that too was preparing for my unseen
future, because all through that I
thought I would send Kirby to school. |
|
13:14:37 |
SandraDodd |
What I discovered was that I wanted our
family to be like those two unschooling
families whose children would come and
climb up into parents' laps, whose
parents helped their children try
things, taste/touch/see/hear things, and
were gentle and sweet. |
|
13:15:04 |
SandraDodd |
And the other two homeschooling
families, though they were just as
involved in La Leche League, were quite
antagonistic with these school aged
kids. |
|
13:15:09 |
SandraDodd |
So I saw what was possible. |
|
13:15:14 |
SandraDodd |
And we always unschooled. |
|
13:15:23 |
Webmama_Tina |
very interesting! :) |
|
13:15:35 |
SandraDodd |
My children are 20, 18 and 15 now so
only the youngest is \school age.\"" |
|
13:15:48 |
SandraDodd |
Okay. I'm done with my long intro. |
|
13:15:52 |
Webmama_Tina |
so your kids would be great to use to
research how children turn out that
always unschooled...that's fascinating
:) |
|
13:16:00 |
Webmama_Tina |
:) that's great, thanks sandra!\ |
|
13:16:05 |
SandraDodd |
Tina, do you prefer one line or two at a
time, or whole paragraphs for posting? |
|
13:16:12 |
Webmama_Tina |
elijahsmommy, you're up! |
|
13:16:28 |
Webmama_Tina |
either is ok |
|
13:16:37 |
Webmama_Tina |
you seem to type fairly fast so i think
we're good either way |
|
13:16:59 |
Webmama_Tina |
for slower typers i ask for them to hit
return more often so we don't have as
long of a gap waiting for the
response...but you're good the way you
are i think :) |
|
13:17:02 |
ElijahsMommy |
ok |
|
13:17:03 |
SandraDodd |
My sister assures me that I type faster
than I think. That could be a danger
here. <g> |
|
13:17:04 |
ElijahsMommy |
ummm |
|
13:17:08 |
Webmama_Tina |
LOL |
|
13:17:10 |
Webmama_Tina |
i hear ya |
|
13:17:30 |
ElijahsMommy |
What is the difference btwn homeschool
and unschool? Can they later go to
college? |
|
13:17:45 |
SandraDodd |
Anyone can go to college, regardless of
other factors. |
|
13:17:54 |
Webmama_Tina |
and don't mind me as i post welcomes for
latecomers, and remind the rules and
queue |
|
13:18:00 |
Webmama_Tina |
Welcome to this week's Mothering
Sponsored chat! This is a moderated
chat. Please make sure you read and
fully understand the Moderated Chat
Instructions before participating in
this chat. Instructions can be found
here:
http://www.mommychats.com/modrules.htm
...A Friendly Reminder: Please do not
post unless it is your turn to ask a
question. If you have a question, please
post a single \?\" and you'll be added
to the queue. Have your question ready
when your name is called. " |
|
13:18:09 |
SandraDodd |
They can just take the SAT, ACT or
whatever, or go to a community college
and transfer. |
|
13:18:35 |
SandraDodd |
There are lots and lots of ways to get
into college, though high schools for
their own purposes lead people to thing
that only a great high school record and
the recommendations of counsellors will
get you in. |
|
13:19:20 |
ElijahsMommy |
Ok so what is the difference btwn
homeschool and unschool, and how was it
doing it for 3 kids? |
|
13:19:33 |
SandraDodd |
As to the difference, unschooling is a
kind of homeschooling. There are other
kinds, too. |
|
13:19:53 |
SandraDodd |
Unschooling isn't a thing I \did for 3
kids,\" though." |
|
13:19:56 |
SandraDodd |
It's a way to live. |
|
13:20:26 |
SandraMort |
? |
|
13:20:46 |
SandraDodd |
I can't scroll up and see the top, so I
don't remember if my website's there,
but there's more information at
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
|
|
13:20:59 |
ElijahsMommy |
so it was a way of life...you just
taught them little things everyday...? |
|
13:21:03 |
Webmama_Tina |
for people that are new to the concept,
could you give a short explanation of
unschooling, sandra |
|
13:21:12 |
SandraDodd |
If a link starts at the beginning of a
line, Tina, will it be clickable? |
|
13:21:25 |
Webmama_Tina |
if you type it as a url or with www at
the beginning its clickable |
|
13:21:39 |
SandraDodd |
They learned little and big things every
few moments, day and night. |
|
13:22:10 |
SandraDodd |
http://sandradodd.com/help |
|
13:22:20 |
Webmama_Tina |
perhaps a comparison of traditional
homeschooling vs unschooling would help
for those that don't understand
unschooling yet? :) |
|
13:22:25 |
SandraDodd |
It's all... pink and green. <g>
I'm afraid to click it because I don't
want to boot myself out of the chat. |
|
13:22:42 |
SandraMort |
the link looks good |
|
13:22:45 |
Webmama_Tina |
if you click a link inside the chat room
it will open the page in a new window |
|
13:23:02 |
SandraDodd |
OH GOOD! Thanks. |
|
13:23:02 |
SandraMort |
iit's fine |
|
13:23:03 |
SandraMort |
I checed |
|
13:23:06 |
SandraMort |
checked. |
|
13:23:26 |
Webmama_Tina |
if you click any other link on the page
(such as in the navigation in the bar at
the top of the page) that will take you
away from the chat, but any links IN the
chat, are fine to click |
|
13:23:40 |
SandraDodd |
Okay. Among homeschoolers, the most
conservative sort of homeschooling is
sometimes referred to as \school at
home\"" |
|
13:24:18 |
SandraDodd |
Some families go so far as to have a
classroom, a school schedule, flag,
pledge of allegience, the kids have to
address their mom as \Mrs. Wilson\" (or
whatever) during \"school\" and the kids
have to dress in \"school clothes.\"
Whole school." |
|
13:24:44 |
SandraDodd |
Most, though, don't go that far, but
they'll have school-style materials and
lessons and \subjects\" with reports and
tests and all." |
|
13:25:38 |
jenajustice |
what about when a child *wants* that
style of \homeschool\" and the parent
doesn't?" |
|
13:25:41 |
ElijahsMommy |
so with doing unschool did you do alot
of research on things they liked, if you
didn't know much aobu tit |
|
13:26:00 |
SandraDodd |
There are within that range some
particular kinds of programs that are
less like public school and more like a
stricter private school (more religious,
more classical/Greek/Latin) and some
that are more like more liberal
schools. |
|
13:26:05 |
SandraDodd |
But still it's like a school one way or
another. |
|
13:26:48 |
SandraDodd |
For myself, if I thought school was the
way to go I'd send them to school with
professionals. Because one drawback of
school at home is that kids don't like
school, but at least if school's bad
they get to go home. |
|
13:27:03 |
SandraDodd |
To make home a school robs the children
of the relief of going home. |
|
13:27:13 |
SandraDodd |
But I really don't want to spend the
hour talking about school. REALLY
don't. <g> |
|
13:27:18 |
Webmama_Tina |
current chatter: ElijahsMommy
...upcoming chatters: SandraMort |
|
13:27:35 |
SandraDodd |
I don't know any children who would want
a strict adversarial relationship with a
parent. |
|
13:27:49 |
SandraDodd |
I didn't need to do a lot of research on
subjects. I just shared the
explorations with my children |
|
13:28:10 |
ElijahsMommy |
are any of your children in college? |
|
13:28:21 |
ElijahsMommy |
or even had a desire? |
|
13:28:36 |
SandraDodd |
The oldest did a semester, and might go
back. The second has been talking
about it (the 18 year old). |
|
13:29:20 |
SandraDodd |
It was a community college situation.
He started a math course baffled and
ended up with the highest test grade and
second highest class grade. |
|
13:29:38 |
SandraDodd |
If they decide to go, they'll have no
problems. |
|
13:29:54 |
SandraDodd |
Both my boys were offered jobs--the
first when he turned 14, the the other
at 15. |
|
13:29:59 |
ElijahsMommy |
one more question does your book talk
about the whole unschooling,,,and your
experience |
|
13:30:24 |
SandraDodd |
They didn't apply. So they both worked
from earlier than most kids ever could,
and they learned lots about things they
never would have been exposed to, by
working. |
|
13:30:32 |
SandraDodd |
And they had money to pursue other
hobbies. |
|
13:30:59 |
SandraDodd |
The book is essays (many of which are
online on my site) on many different
unschooling experiences and topics. |
|
13:31:07 |
ElijahsMommy |
oh ok...thank you |
|
13:31:41 |
SandraDodd |
All the how-to stuff about how
unschooling works is at my site,
though. I've collected and linked to
many other people's writings, too. |
|
13:31:58 |
SandraDodd |
It's not just my voice there. Years' of
the best of unschooling ideas! |
|
13:32:07 |
Webmama_Tina |
sandra can you just give a brief
explanation of unschooling... |
|
13:32:31 |
Webmama_Tina |
i would like to have it in the
transcripts and for those that are not
familiar with it yet :) |
|
13:32:34 |
SandraDodd |
Okay. And Tina, if I've missed a
question, please prompt me, because I
tried looking up but couldn't go very
far back i the chat. |
|
13:32:42 |
Webmama_Tina |
no worries, i got your back :) |
|
13:33:25 |
SandraDodd |
Unschooling is based on the open
classroom theories of the late 1960's
and the 1970's. John Holt was one of
many proponents of the idea that schools
should be revamped |
|
13:33:32 |
SandraDodd |
in such a way that children had choices |
|
13:33:40 |
SandraDodd |
and could discover things in fun ways |
|
13:33:51 |
SandraDodd |
by seeing and touching and experimenting
informally |
|
13:34:12 |
SandraDodd |
with materials, plants, equipment,
concepts, art, music... |
|
13:34:31 |
SandraDodd |
That if things are laid out in fun ways
in interesting surroundings and children
are encouraged to explore, they can't
help but learn. |
|
13:35:06 |
SandraDodd |
And researchers in those days had lots
of proof and hopeful statistics and
evidence, but then to their great dismay
it didn't work outside of the laboratory
schools and university experiements. |
|
13:35:20 |
SandraDodd |
There are several reasons for the
failures. |
|
13:35:45 |
SandraDodd |
I live in an area where many schools
tried these methods. And I did when I
taught to the extent I could (which was
insufficient). |
|
13:36:02 |
SandraDodd |
And in Albuquerque several physical
schools were built on the model
recommended by the open classroom folks. |
|
13:36:13 |
SandraDodd |
But first, the teachers have to really
understand and want to do it. |
|
13:36:31 |
SandraDodd |
And second, the freedom has to have some
reality. It can't just be \kind of\"
freedom." |
|
13:36:41 |
SandraDodd |
And the BIG one is the kids have to be
there because they want to be there. |
|
13:36:56 |
SandraDodd |
And so when the everyday realities of
public school are laid over that, it
fails. |
|
13:37:23 |
SandraDodd |
But in the experimental situations, the
kids had agreed to be in alternative
schools, or their parents had been
supportive of it (during and after
school) and the teachers were the
researchers. |
|
13:37:36 |
SandraDodd |
So the theory is great,and the research
was done, but it couldn't work. |
|
13:37:42 |
SandraDodd |
In individual families, though it CAN
work! |
|
13:37:48 |
SandraDodd |
And it does. |
|
13:38:06 |
SandraDodd |
And now I suppose the next question will
be \but what does it look like\" or
\"what is a typical day like?\"" |
|
13:38:10 |
SandraMort |
My sister was in one of those open
classroom projects in the early 80's in
NYC. Ironically, I was part of the
reason my mother pulled her out of the
program.a |
|
13:38:13 |
Webmama_Tina |
lol yup |
|
13:39:23 |
Webmama_Tina |
Welcome to this week's Mothering
Sponsored chat! This is a moderated
chat. Please make sure you read and
fully understand the Moderated Chat
Instructions before participating in
this chat. Instructions can be found
here: http://www.mommychats.com/modrules.htm
...A Friendly Reminder: Please do not
post unless it is your turn to ask a
question. If you have a question, please
post a single \?\" and you'll be added
to the queue. Have your question ready
when your name is called. " |
|
13:39:34 |
SandraMort |
oops. orry! |
|
13:39:47 |
SandraDodd |
I've collected lots of typical days
accounts and I'll put the link here, but
read them later. There are very many.
And in \Reading Rainbow\" tradition,
I'll say (in LaVar Burton's voice) that
you don't have to take my word for it. " |
|
13:39:50 |
Webmama_Tina |
no worries sandra... :) you're the next
chatter anyway, you're good :) |
|
13:39:55 |
SandraDodd |
http://sandradodd.com/typical |
|
13:40:11 |
Webmama_Tina |
lol |
|
13:40:20 |
Webmama_Tina |
LOVE lavar! |
|
13:40:24 |
Stacey |
? |
|
13:40:43 |
Webmama_Tina |
sandramort, go for it, you're up! |
|
13:41:06 |
SandraMort |
First, I wanted to thank you for your
web site. I have it linked from my blog
and it's the fitst place I refer people
when they have questions (and I'm not
feeling patient enough to answer). |
|
13:41:22 |
SandraDodd |
Thanks! |
|
13:41:52 |
Webmama_Tina |
current chatter: SandraMort ...upcoming
chatters: Stacey |
|
13:41:56 |
SandraMort |
I'm the mom of an unschooling family
with three kids (8, 6 and 2) despite
being a bad influence and nagging my
mother to take my sister out of the open
classeom setting... :( |
|
13:42:01 |
SandraMort |
Bad me.. |
|
13:42:16 |
SandraMort |
We've never done it another way, other
than one \semester\" of \"preschool\"
that my oldest went to at 3. " |
|
13:42:16 |
Webmama_Tina |
lol |
|
13:42:32 |
SandraMort |
(Hey, I'm Jewish, I get to feel guilty,
even if I was only 12 at the time!!!) |
|
13:42:35 |
SandraMort |
lol |
|
13:43:05 |
SandraMort |
My question is what your response is
when someone calls you a \radical
unschooler\". I don't feel like we're
doing anything particularly radical and
my reaction is always somewhat
defensive... the word 'radical' usually
feels judgemental in that context. " |
|
13:43:34 |
SandraDodd |
I talked my cousin (my age, who grew up
with me) out of homeschooling her first
child and she went on to have five, and
would've been a great homeschooler.
Talk about GUILT! And honestly, my
first work to help others unschool was
directly penitential. |
|
13:43:52 |
SandraDodd |
I told myself I was going to help other
people for four years to make up for
talking Nada out of unschooling. |
|
13:44:08 |
GourmetMama |
? |
|
13:44:08 |
SandraDodd |
I don't mind \radical.\" I just hear it
as \"real\" or \"actual\"" |
|
13:44:18 |
SandraDodd |
(\everything is satisfactual\")" |
|
13:44:24 |
SandraMort |
lol ok |
|
13:45:00 |
SandraDodd |
When they use it as an insult (as a few
do), I just figure they're trying to
discredit me at a surface level, since
they can't do it in any substantial way. |
|
13:45:06 |
Webmama_Tina |
current chatter: SandraMort ...upcoming
chatters: Stacey, GourmetMama |
|
13:45:21 |
SandraDodd |
But most who say \radical unschooling\"
mean (I think) complete, whole-life
unschooling." |
|
13:45:52 |
SandraDodd |
People who have met my kids never say
another negative thing about
unschooling. It's kind of amazing. |
|
13:46:08 |
SandraDodd |
When I figured that out, as my kids got
older, I started trying always to take
one of them with me to any conference
where I spoke. |
|
13:46:19 |
SandraDodd |
Because my words might be fun and
inspiring, but they're no \proof.\"" |
|
13:46:35 |
SandraDodd |
But when a nervous parent spends any
time talking with Kirby or Marty or
Holly, their fears dissolve. |
|
13:46:52 |
SandraMort |
*nod* An unschooler s hat convinced me
(I think you know Daystar, actually) |
|
13:47:03 |
SandraMort |
is what |
|
13:47:24 |
SandraDodd |
Oh! \is what.\" I was thinking \"hat\"
:) " |
|
13:47:28 |
SandraMort |
he was so literate, so well spoken, had
such poisse with adult |
|
13:47:29 |
SandraMort |
s |
|
13:47:32 |
SandraMort |
Broken keyboard |
|
13:47:40 |
SandraMort |
poise |
|
13:47:47 |
Webmama_Tina |
lol i thought you saw a hat that
convinced you too, LOL! |
|
13:47:54 |
SandraDodd |
When my boys were offered those jobs, it
was because of that. They were already
whole people even though they were
young. |
|
13:47:58 |
SandraMort |
no, the laptop keyboard is junk |
|
13:48:10 |
Webmama_Tina |
i was going to say...wow, i want to know
what that hat said! LOL |
|
13:48:22 |
SandraMort |
now you know why I want to learn to
knit! |
|
13:48:24 |
SandraMort |
lol |
|
13:48:29 |
SandraMort |
hats talk to me |
|
13:48:34 |
Webmama_Tina |
lol |
|
13:48:42 |
SandraDodd |
They were responsible and reliable and
calm (and also fun and funny, but not as
so many 14 year olds can be,
eye-contact-avoidant, or shifty or
lazy...) |
|
13:49:04 |
SandraDodd |
I used to be that way when I was 14. |
|
13:49:12 |
waterdog |
I can't believe it took me 45 min to get
in here. I guess that's what happens
when you're trying to do it while
homeschooling! lol |
|
13:49:24 |
Webmama_Tina |
lol waterdog...glad you made it! |
|
13:49:27 |
SandraDodd |
I had become pretty distrustful of
adults, and school had taught me to stay
away from older and younger kids, and
just stick to kids my own age. Very
unnatural. |
|
13:49:29 |
Webmama_Tina |
Welcome to this week's Mothering
Sponsored chat! This is a moderated
chat. Please make sure you read and
fully understand the Moderated Chat
Instructions before participating in
this chat. Instructions can be found
here:
http://www.mommychats.com/modrules.htm
...A Friendly Reminder: Please do not
post unless it is your turn to ask a
question. If you have a question, please
post a single \?\" and you'll be added
to the queue. Have your question ready
when your name is called. " |
|
13:49:44 |
Webmama_Tina |
current chatter: SandraMort ...upcoming
chatters: Stacey, GourmetMama |
|
13:50:03 |
SandraDodd |
Tina, I'm not sure how this works,
completely, but I'm willing to stay
longer if that's an option, if others
want. |
|
13:50:05 |
SandraMort |
well, it's time for a purl row... and I
have to finish learning so I can help
the kids learn to knit... :) |
|
13:50:10 |
SandraMort |
So I thank you |
|
13:50:14 |
Webmama_Tina |
oh that's great sandra, thanks! |
|
13:50:29 |
Webmama_Tina |
stacey, you're up! :)\ |
|
13:50:31 |
Stacey |
I keep getting bumped off so I hope this
goes through... |
|
13:50:42 |
Webmama_Tina |
current chatter: Stacey ...upcoming
chatters: GourmetMama |
|
13:50:49 |
Stacey |
We have been homeschooling for 11 years,
unschooling for the last 7 of those |
|
13:51:35 |
Stacey |
for the past year or so we've been
coping with caring for my terminally ill
mom and now are all still reeling from
her death. I find that even though I
consider us unschoolers, |
|
13:52:37 |
Stacey |
I feel more like we're just
surviving...I'm not as innovative or
involved in the way we used to do school
and for the life of me, can't seem to
get back into the swing of things. |
|
13:53:24 |
SandraDodd |
If your kids were going to school during
that time, they wouldn't have been
learning much and might have been
disruptive to the rest of the class.
Grief and preoccupation do that to
anyone. |
|
13:53:34 |
Stacey |
I'm grateful that we're not following a
curriculum of any sort, but now, a
couple of my children have turned to
that. I guess I feel like instead of
unschooling I've been unparenting.. |
|
13:53:42 |
Stacey |
help? |
|
13:53:51 |
SandraDodd |
Some teachers are grieving or caught up
in their own personal problems, and it
keeps them from being fully present
there too. |
|
13:54:29 |
Webmama_Tina |
i would think its totally ok to be on
hold while you all make it through the
stages of grief |
|
13:54:40 |
SandraDodd |
I don't see why your children should
turn to a curriculum instead of turning
to books, DVDs, music, hobbies, friends
outside the family... |
|
13:54:44 |
Webmama_Tina |
and i'm so sorry for your loss! |
|
13:55:05 |
Stacey |
Thanks, and I do know that they've
learned soooo much from all of this. |
|
13:55:10 |
SandraDodd |
In school, a third of the kids are
behind, a third are ahead, and the other
third are mostly resistent. <g> |
|
13:55:16 |
Webmama_Tina |
lol |
|
13:56:10 |
Stacey |
I guess I'm looking for I don't know ?
a jumpstart or maybe just some
encouragement to continue... |
|
13:56:11 |
Webmama_Tina |
current chatter: Stacey ...upcoming
chatters: GourmetMama |
|
13:56:19 |
SandraDodd |
The idea/ideal of school shepherding
kids through materials as a group isn't
reality. |
|
13:56:35 |
SandraDodd |
The idea/ideal of every teacher being
together 180 days a year and fully
attentive to every one of 30 kids isn't
reality. |
|
13:57:10 |
SandraDodd |
And so the ideal of every unschooling
mom doing innovative and involved things
365 days a year isn't realistic either. |
|
13:57:57 |
SandraDodd |
Think in terms of hours and days, of the
year (let's call it a year) that you
cared for your mom. It must have been
very intense, and I bet the kids learned
a lot about geriatrics (the big field in
many ways) and medicine and human
factors. |
|
13:58:07 |
SandraDodd |
Maybe the learned about finance,
insurance, laws, traditions. |
|
13:58:31 |
SandraDodd |
Maybe they heard more about the history
of your family than they would have if
you hadn't known your mom was terminal. |
|
13:58:39 |
Stacey |
The completely learned to never pick up
a cigarette, that's for certain. |
|
13:58:57 |
SandraDodd |
How many hours did they spend doing (I
don't know...) food prep, meds, prep,
clean-up, helping take care of their
mom? |
|
13:59:15 |
Stacey |
Too many to count |
|
13:59:22 |
SandraDodd |
When people have measured the amount of
real \learning time\" in schools, it's
come down to like between fifteen
minutes and two hours a day." |
|
13:59:35 |
SandraDodd |
Still, schools count it as six hours a
day (or whatever, in whichever
jurisdiction. |
|
13:59:45 |
SandraDodd |
So six hours times 180 days. |
|
14:00:06 |
SandraDodd |
That's the conservative amount of time
anyone claims school \provides.\"" |
|
14:00:20 |
SandraDodd |
With unschooling, it comes to be all the
time, every day, all year. |
|
14:00:32 |
SandraDodd |
But if you worry about what seems like a
solid month of \nothing,\" " |
|
14:00:46 |
SandraDodd |
here is how many days of \nothing\" are
scheduled by every public school I know
of:" |
|
14:00:49 |
SandraDodd |
185 |
|
14:00:59 |
SandraDodd |
Over half the year, summer, vacations
and weekends, NOTHING. |
|
14:01:24 |
SandraDodd |
A child who is deeply involved in
something interesting to him will learn. |
|
14:01:33 |
Stacey |
One unexpected bonus of this is that we
were all there when she died, something
that our entire society is mostly
protected from, seeing birth,
death,picking and eating their own
food...I know that it's enriched them. |
|
14:01:38 |
SandraDodd |
A child who casually picks up some
object he'snever seen is learning. |
|
14:02:05 |
Stacey |
I guess it's just hard to squeeze onto a
transcript! |
|
14:02:13 |
SandraDodd |
I have an article, and it's online,
about looking too narrowly for what you
want to find. |
|
14:02:35 |
Stacey |
is there a link? |
|
14:02:47 |
SandraDodd |
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit |
|
14:02:53 |
SandraDodd |
That might help you, Stacey. |
|
14:03:02 |
SandraDodd |
Sorry, I was trying to paste it in and
couldn't get it to go. |
|
14:03:17 |
SandraDodd |
Are you sure you need to have a
transcript, Stacey? |
|
14:03:23 |
Stacey |
Thanks. I love the guidance you've given
all of us |
|
14:03:31 |
SandraDodd |
Very few jurisdictions actually require
that. |
|
14:03:49 |
SandraDodd |
Thank you for the kind words, Stacey. |
|
14:04:18 |
Webmama_Tina |
current chatter: Stacey ...upcoming
chatters: GourmetMama |
|
14:04:54 |
SandraDodd |
I was just telling a young (22) friend
the other day that my kids were always
the most exhausted |
|
14:05:05 |
SandraDodd |
not after a day of physical activity,
but after a day of intense learning. |
|
14:05:26 |
Stacey |
That sort of describes my kids, too. |
|
14:05:27 |
SandraDodd |
If they saw things they had never seen,
got to do something they'd never done,
met new people and played and talked,
they slept like rocks. |
|
14:05:45 |
SandraDodd |
But those days might not have looked
like something to write a transcript
about. |
|
14:05:55 |
SandraDodd |
Sometimes the most intense learning of
all looks like play. |
|
14:06:07 |
SandraDodd |
And that is central to what makes
unschooling work. |
|
14:06:06 |
Stacey |
I can't get them to sleep for their
voracious reading, they'll routinely go
through a book or two a day |
|
14:06:38 |
SandraDodd |
What makes unschooling work is that
children learn by playing. |
|
14:06:51 |
SandraDodd |
Older kids too. Adults, too. |
|
14:06:56 |
SandraDodd |
People learn by playing. |
|
14:07:04 |
Stacey |
You're right. There are so few
unschoolers here that I forget what I'm
doing. |
|
14:07:05 |
SandraDodd |
People can learn without \work\" and
\"study.\" " |
|
14:07:15 |
SandraDodd |
They can learn by trying, discussing,
exploring. |
|
14:07:43 |
SandraDodd |
Stacey, I don't believe you need to try
to \get them to sleep\" either. " |
|
14:07:55 |
SandraDodd |
Sleep happens when people are sleepy.
People will, and do, sleep. |
|
14:07:58 |
SandraDodd |
http://sandradodd.com/sleep |
|
14:07:58 |
Stacey |
You're right! |
|
14:08:44 |
SandraMort |
that didn't go through |
|
14:08:54 |
Stacey |
It's almost as if I've forgotten how to
walk! What you're saying are things that
I know. Things that I've told others for
years and now it's me looking for the
answers again <sigh> |
|
14:09:04 |
SandraMort |
a shame, sleep is a Big Problem for us |
|
14:09:10 |
SandraDodd |
http://sandradodd.com/sleep |
|
14:09:36 |
jenajustice |
? |
|
14:09:36 |
SandraMort |
There are LOTS of pages on this site,
but /sleep isn't one of them. |
|
14:10:12 |
SandraDodd |
DOH!! Sorry. SleepING what have I done
wrong?
http://www.sandradodd.com/sleeping
|
|
14:10:18 |
SandraMort |
ahhh |
|
14:10:20 |
SandraDodd |
I try to make them guessable. |
|
14:10:27 |
Webmama_Tina |
sorry, had a phone call...i'm back :) |
|
14:10:30 |
Webmama_Tina |
current chatter: Stacey ...upcoming
chatters: GourmetMama |
|
14:10:49 |
SandraDodd |
if you try
www.sandradodd.com/games (or
anything) you'll either get a page or a
search page. |
|
14:11:12 |
Webmama_Tina |
current chatter: Stacey ...upcoming
chatters: GourmetMama, jenajustice |
|
14:11:21 |
Stacey |
My youngest is pulling at my sleeve,
wanting to go swimming...even though
it's going to mean missing out on the
rest of this chat, it's where my heart
is leading me. Thanks for the
encouragement. S |
|
14:11:35 |
SandraDodd |
Have fun, Stacey. |
|
14:11:41 |
SandraDodd |
I hope you feel more confident soon! |
|
14:11:43 |
Webmama_Tina |
current chatter: GourmetMama
...upcoming chatters: jenajustice |
|
14:12:22 |
GourmetMama |
First I want to thanks Tina for her hard
work running the chat and Sandra for
being here to inspire us. |
|
14:12:35 |
SandraDodd |
I'm glad to have been invited. |
|
14:12:59 |
Webmama_Tina |
oh i wasn't watching the time...ok so
that will be our last questions, and the
queue is closed now, so we can wrap this
up (otherwise we could go on all day!
*grin*) |
|
14:13:16 |
SandraDodd |
I can go on all day. My youngest is 15
now. <g> |
|
14:13:17 |
Webmama_Tina |
aw, thanks for the kind words
GourmetMama |
|
14:13:30 |
SandraMort |
lol |
|
14:13:39 |
Webmama_Tina |
lol, mine is 21mo and my 6yr old has
strep throat so i should get outta here
soon :) |
|
14:13:49 |
GourmetMama |
I have two questions, Sandra. The first
is that my middle son wishes to enter
college to be a nurse and they have
requested a transcript. How do you put
real life into a transcript for college?
The second is how did your kid sever
learn their times tables? |
|
14:14:15 |
GourmetMama |
Without rote memorization I mean. LOL |
|
14:14:38 |
SandraDodd |
Write a narrative instead of a
transcript. State in the narrative that
many homeschoolers make up transcripts
but that it would be dishonest, and that
your son has learned in the ways they
need college students to learn. |
|
14:14:50 |
SandraDodd |
If you need help with wording, go to an
unschooling discussion list and ask for
help. |
|
14:14:52 |
SandraDodd |
Seriously. |
|
14:14:56 |
SandraDodd |
http://sandradodd.com/lists/other
|
|
14:15:00 |
SandraDodd |
They'll help you. |
|
14:15:05 |
GourmetMama |
oh! What a great idea! Thank you! |
|
14:15:33 |
SandraDodd |
I must answer your question with a
question (or at least a request for
clarification): Please define \learn
their times tables.\"" |
|
14:15:40 |
GourmetMama |
Feels a little like a light bulb went
off over that one. lol |
|
14:16:17 |
GourmetMama |
My daughter cannot do multiplcation. She
hates it, hates all math, and we have
been struggling to help her learn her
multiplication tables. |
|
14:16:30 |
SandraDodd |
This is not an unschooling question., |
|
14:16:43 |
SandraDodd |
Because I would have to ask how you know
your daughter cannot do multiplication. |
|
14:16:50 |
SandraDodd |
Why does she \hate math\"? " |
|
14:16:59 |
SandraDodd |
Why are you HAVING \math\" for her to
hate?" |
|
14:17:14 |
Webmama_Tina |
http://www.googolpower.com |
|
14:17:26 |
Webmama_Tina |
for learning times tables with music... |
|
14:17:36 |
SandraDodd |
http://sandradodd.com/timestables |
|
14:17:45 |
GourmetMama |
Won't she need math to geta job or into
college? |
|
14:17:46 |
Webmama_Tina |
in a fun way, play in the car while
driving around |
|
14:17:48 |
SandraDodd |
Sorry to answer so many questions with
links, but really it's best. The
answers are all written out. |
|
14:17:55 |
GourmetMama |
Thank you Tina. |
|
14:18:06 |
SandraDodd |
Have you ever seen a job application
that says \What is 6x9?\"" |
|
14:18:16 |
SandraDodd |
How do kids in school \learn their times
tables\"? " |
|
14:18:18 |
GourmetMama |
No that's fine, Sandra, if it's there,
then cool, I'll go read it! |
|
14:18:19 |
SandraDodd |
Many never do. |
|
14:18:40 |
SandraDodd |
And I want to say this, too. Most
people don't even know what they mean
when they say \times table\"" |
|
14:18:44 |
SandraDodd |
what \table\"?" |
|
14:18:52 |
GourmetMama |
Well, we were required to write them
every day until our brains imploded. lol
Which is what I wanted to avoid. |
|
14:18:57 |
waterdog |
Ack, I tried to allow popups to follow
your links and got booted...Tina, could
you post them again? |
|
14:19:15 |
SandraDodd |
And if you write out the big grid of 1x1
through 9x9 (or 12x12) then you have
created one single \table.\"" |
|
14:19:21 |
SandraDodd |
And it doesn't need to be \learned.\"" |
|
14:19:58 |
SandraDodd |
And many schoolkids who think they have
\learned their times tables\" are
reciting things that make no sense to
them at all. They have no understanding
of what they mean when they recite
\"nine times nine is eighty-one\"" |
|
14:20:01 |
Webmama_Tina |
http://www.googolpower.com is
the one i posted |
|
14:20:10 |
Webmama_Tina |
they have cds where they put math
learning to song |
|
14:20:21 |
Webmama_Tina |
including multiplication |
|
14:20:24 |
SandraDodd |
But my kids first \did times tables\" on
paper for fun for a penny a square to go
buy a soda. <g>" |
|
14:20:46 |
SandraDodd |
Putting math to song is still rote
memorization and won't necessarily lead
to any understanding. |
|
14:20:54 |
SandraDodd |
But my kids learned lots of things with
music. |
|
14:21:06 |
Webmama_Tina |
true sandra...they should learn it hands
on first |
|
14:21:10 |
SandraDodd |
Discovery Toys has (had) a tape called
\Sounds like Fun\" that was REALLY
popular here." |
|
14:21:32 |
SandraDodd |
And they learned the days of the week by
singing them to the tune of Yankee
Doodle (pre-Barney; now kids think of
that as the Barney song) |
|
14:21:53 |
SandraDodd |
But because the days of the week fit
into each of the four lines of the song,
it's also good for learning how long a
month is (four weeks, and some...) |
|
14:22:04 |
GourmetMama |
So if they get the concept...that 7X3 is
the same as 7 + 7 + 7 then they do know
how to multiply? |
|
14:22:24 |
SandraDodd |
The reason I asked you to clarify is
because it depends what you mean by
\know.\"" |
|
14:22:30 |
SandraMort |
sure, that'swhere my kids are right now |
|
14:22:34 |
SandraDodd |
Recite? Understand? Recognize it on
paper? |
|
14:22:53 |
SandraDodd |
If you read the times tables article I
put there
http://sandradodd.com/timestables
|
|
14:23:06 |
SandraDodd |
you'll see a story of Kirby teaching
people older than he was to multiply by
18 in their heads. |
|
14:23:13 |
SandraMort |
eva 'discvered' the commutative
principle the other day... i think
that's the one..... 2x3 = 3 x 2 |
|
14:23:22 |
GourmetMama |
I guess what I meant was understand in a
way to be able to utilize it in other
math problems and reallife situations. |
|
14:23:31 |
SandraDodd |
But when he went to take that math
course at the community college, he
didn't recognize the notation. |
|
14:23:48 |
SandraDodd |
I hope you didn't tell Eva anything like
\Oh, that's the commmutative property of
numbers!\"" |
|
14:24:06 |
SandraDodd |
To understand math without knowing
mathematical notation is WAY better than
the other way around. |
|
14:24:32 |
SandraDodd |
But if you start with notation, you can
make kids hate and fear math. Schools
do it ALL THE TIME, every day (well, six
hours times 180 days a year, I mean). |
|
14:24:34 |
SandraMort |
LOL No, we were on an escalator, she
uses math to distract her from the
heights. She had waaaay more important
things on her mind than meaningless
titles |
|
14:24:38 |
SandraDodd |
Don't try that at home! <g> |
|
14:24:45 |
Webmama_Tina |
definitely...to actually understand the
concepts fully...makes a heckuva lot
more sense then memorizing things they
don't understand |
|
14:24:51 |
SandraDodd |
(not the escalator, the turning kids off
to math) |
|
14:25:09 |
GourmetMama |
So as long as they grasp the concepts
then I am overworrying the rest,
basically. |
|
14:25:14 |
SandraDodd |
Paul McCartney was doing okay musically
without knowing musical notation. |
|
14:25:24 |
SandraDodd |
He did learn to read and write music, in
his 40's, because he wanted to. |
|
14:25:29 |
SandraDodd |
But it wasn't necessary for being a
musician. |
|
14:25:55 |
SandraMort |
It's SO cool... it's like the joy of
watching a baby learn t walk. They just
DO. wWithout knwing the names of the
steps involved... it just is
internalized. |
|
14:25:59 |
SandraDodd |
I would hate to even start to imagine
how many potential musicians just turned
away from the idea of singing or playing
instruments because they were pressed to
learn music theory and notation at a y
oung age. |
|
14:25:59 |
SandraMort |
and then they can walk. |
|
14:26:04 |
SandraDodd |
YES. They can just learn. |
|
14:26:09 |
SandraDodd |
That's what unschooling is about. |
|
14:26:19 |
SandraDodd |
Take away the school, the school
language and practices and expectations. |
|
14:26:25 |
SandraDodd |
And all that's left is the learning. |
|
14:26:31 |
SandraMort |
But math still scares me. I work so
hard to not let them see that. |
|
14:26:42 |
SandraMort |
Sorry -- them \not learning math\"
scares me." |
|
14:26:50 |
SandraDodd |
Don't be schooly or schoolish. |
|
14:26:56 |
SandraDodd |
Be UN schoolish. |
|
14:26:59 |
GourmetMama |
She hates math because she is dyslexic
and she confuses the numbers so it's
frustrating rather than fun.For the most
part she does a LOT of cooking and uses
fractions with ease...but anything else
just makes her mad. |
|
14:27:04 |
SandraMort |
No, I'm not. And they're learning. I
shut my mouth and they do fine. |
|
14:27:11 |
SandraDodd |
No, she hates math because someone put
\math\" in front of her." |
|
14:27:24 |
SandraDodd |
There's nothing to be mad about in the
absence of the notation and the pressure
and the schoolishness. |
|
14:27:45 |
SandraDodd |
It won't be fun for kids who aren't
dyslexic, for someone to put numbers in
front of a person. |
|
14:27:52 |
SandraDodd |
Let her ask. |
|
14:27:59 |
SandraDodd |
Play games, build things, do art. |
|
14:28:06 |
SandraDodd |
Patterns and counting occur naturally in
the whole world. |
|
14:28:14 |
SandraMort |
I'm told that knitting is really good
for learning math. |
|
14:28:18 |
SandraDodd |
Let her discover those things in the
course of doing other things. |
|
14:28:31 |
SandraDodd |
If you think of knitting as \good for
learning math\" it isn't good for
knitting. <g>" |
|
14:28:34 |
SandraMort |
Though that's not the reason I'm
teaching the kids... they wanted to know
how |
|
14:28:39 |
SandraDodd |
EVERYthing is good for learning
everything |
|
14:28:40 |
SandraMort |
No, no, I juts heard that |
|
14:28:47 |
SandraDodd |
http://sandradodd.com/learning |
|
14:28:54 |
SandraDodd |
There's a page with few words. Lots of
learning. |
|
14:28:58 |
SandraMort |
Well, sure, but vitamin A from carrots
isn't less good for you if you LIKE
carrots. |
|
14:29:03 |
SandraDodd |
http://sandradodd.com/history |
|
14:29:17 |
SandraDodd |
Carrots should be eaten by people who
want to eat carrots, though. |
|
14:29:21 |
GourmetMama |
I'm trying to decide when she started
attempting to do math....her brother
loves it and I think she wanted to do
what he was doing...which led to
frustration and her wanting to do it to
be able to challenge him, etc. |
|
14:29:37 |
SandraMort |
Right. And my kids want to learn to
knit. |
|
14:29:40 |
SandraDodd |
I think you're thinking of math as
something separate from life. |
|
14:30:08 |
SandraMort |
the kids aren't the ones with issues, I
am... and I don't intend to pass those
issues on :) |
|
14:30:14 |
SandraDodd |
Something that is \done\" rather than
something that is part of looking around
and hearing music and all that." |
|
14:30:21 |
SandraDodd |
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
|
|
14:30:30 |
SandraDodd |
parents need deschooling way more than
any kids ever will |
|
14:30:40 |
SandraMort |
nod |
|
14:30:46 |
Webmama_Tina |
very true |
|
14:30:50 |
GourmetMama |
So she initially wanted to and couldn't
and I think I should have simply
encouraged her to try again later rather
than again every day. |
|
14:30:52 |
SandraDodd |
If a child was in school five years, he
can recover in five months. Most of us
were in school for 12, 16, 20 years. |
|
14:30:59 |
SandraDodd |
Teaching counts for being in school. |
|
14:31:13 |
Webmama_Tina |
i'm amazed at how completely some people
\dont' get it\"...prime example, was
dayna trying to explain unschooling to
dr phil, LOL" |
|
14:31:23 |
Webmama_Tina |
dr phil did NOT get it |
|
14:31:33 |
SandraMort |
but he set her up to fail, it was no
accident. |
|
14:31:34 |
SandraDodd |
And just with any recovery, it doesn't
start until the person consciously wants
to work on it, so some parents try to
unschool without getting over school
themselves. |
|
14:31:41 |
GourmetMama |
That is SO true. I have been
homeschooling for 9 years and I still
fall back into \school\" mentality
without realizing I do!!" |
|
14:31:54 |
SandraDodd |
And then they are setting their kids up
to fail because they will still see what
their kids do through school-colored
glasses. |
|
14:32:22 |
SandraDodd |
Deschooling for you, GourmetMama! You
can do it! |
|
14:32:39 |
GourmetMama |
Thank you Sandra! |
|
14:32:52 |
SandraDodd |
http://sandradodd.com/beginning
|
|
14:33:29 |
GourmetMama |
I'm done. Thank you both. I will explore
your website in detail later Sandra. We
are making lip balms and salves this
afternoon! |
|
14:33:48 |
SandraMort |
oh fun |
|
14:33:59 |
SandraDodd |
Sounds fun. Don't forget to look,
though. It will make your children's
lives and your life more peaceful |
|
14:34:03 |
SandraDodd |
And peace and calm help learning! |
|
14:34:08 |
SandraDodd |
Stress and pressure never help learning. |
|
14:34:41 |
Webmama_Tina |
jenajustice had our last question |
|
14:35:01 |
Webmama_Tina |
i think? |
|
14:35:17 |
Webmama_Tina |
i'm getting distracted to the nth degree
over here with whining children, so i
need to wrap this up |
|
14:35:18 |
jenajustice |
Hello, my question is about suport for
large families .. I have 6 children and
find unschooling to be a challenge I 6
people going 6 directions |
|
14:35:37 |
jenajustice |
sorry typo |
|
14:35:38 |
SandraDodd |
The typical days page might help you
with ideas. |
|
14:35:53 |
SandraDodd |
I don't really understand the six
directions, because often several kids
will be doing things together. |
|
14:36:10 |
SandraDodd |
School at home would be a nightmare, for
a mom trying to \do lessons\" with six
different kids," |
|
14:36:12 |
jenajustice |
not mine they all goin different
directions |
|
14:36:15 |
SandraDodd |
but unschooling isn't like that |
|
14:36:23 |
jenajustice |
yes it would |
|
14:36:46 |
SandraDodd |
If you just deal with those who need the
most help, some are doing things
peacefully and contentedly, I'm guessing |
|
14:36:53 |
jenajustice |
I often find myself trying to get them
to all do the same thing because it is
daunting tyring to let them each go
their own way |
|
14:37:09 |
jenajustice |
and t.v. ... ok or not ok? |
|
14:37:17 |
SandraDodd |
That doesn't seem good for learning, to
stop them from doing what seems
interesting to them in the moment. |
|
14:37:28 |
SandraDodd |
If you set your priority on learning and
peace, it makes other questions easier. |
|
14:37:41 |
jenajustice |
ahhh |
|
14:37:43 |
SandraDodd |
I have three things to say to Jena's
questions and then I can quit so Tina
can go. |
|
14:37:53 |
jenajustice |
thanks sandra |
|
14:38:03 |
jenajustice |
nak |
|
14:38:06 |
SandraDodd |
When trying to decide whether
unschooling is working, remember to
compare it to what would be going on if
your kids went to school |
|
14:38:12 |
Webmama_Tina |
that's fine sandra :) |
|
14:38:18 |
SandraDodd |
They'd be doing six different things
(homework) not of your choosing or
theirs. |
|
14:38:23 |
SandraDodd |
And you would be expected to
oversee/help. |
|
14:38:42 |
SandraDodd |
They would have been taught by school
NOT to fraternize with others; they
would be less likely to play together. |
|
14:39:00 |
SandraDodd |
So don't compare it to your imagined
ideal. Compare it to other real
options, and then appreciate what you
have. |
|
14:39:01 |
jenajustice |
one of our big reasons for NOT being in
ps |
|
14:39:16 |
jenajustice |
so our kids will actually like each
other lol |
